Bite Your Tongue: The Podcast
Did you ever expect being the parent of an adult child would be so difficult? Introducing "Bite Your Tongue," a look at exploring that next chapter in parenting: building healthy relationships with adult children. From money and finance to relationships and sibling rivalry, we cover it all. Even when to bite your tongue! Join your hosts Denise Gorant and Kirsten Heckendorf as they bring together experts, parents and even young adults to discuss this next phase of parenting. We will chat, have some fun and learn about ourselves and our kids along the way! RSSVERIFY
Bite Your Tongue: The Podcast
Season 3 Episode 77 Understanding and Supporting LGBTQIA+ Adult Children: Transformative Conversations with Matthew Rodriguez
What if simply engaging in thoughtful conversations could transform your understanding of the LGBTQIA+ community? In our latest episode of Bite Your Tongue, we celebrate Pride Month with the Emmy-nominated Matthew Rodriguez, the insightful host and executive producer of "It's Okay to Ask Questions."
Through heartfelt narratives and candid discussions, we unravel the complexities surrounding pronoun respect, gender identity, and the often-overlooked struggles of intersex and transgender individuals. Hear the poignant story of Pidgeon Pigonas, an intersex individual subjected to surgeries without consent, and understand the far-reaching implications for intersex and transgender rights.
We also explore the evolving role of parents in supporting their children's diverse dreams and aspirations. Reflecting on personal experiences and shared stories, we highlight the importance of allyship, education, and vocal support in creating a more inclusive environment. Tune in to learn how to engage in meaningful conversations and build stronger, more understanding relationships with your adult children.
A big thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer, for making this episode possible. We love hearing from you! Share your thoughts with us at biteyourtongue@gmail.com and follow us on Facebook and Instagram.
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One of the beautiful things about technology is we've been able to hear so many more stories and it's not going through one filter anymore, where there's three TV channels and one newspaper. There's a lot of ways to share information and because of that, there are so many more stories to listen to. So if you are a parent, I also think it's your responsibility to think about all the different ways people can. Your responsibility to think about all the different ways people can navigate in this world. All the different interests and I'm not just talking about sexuality they could be a TikTok star to an electrician, to like. All the ways you can grow and be in this world. There are many, and being open to that, as long as it brings love and joy and no harm, why not?
Speaker 2:Hello everyone, welcome to Bite your Tongue the podcast. I'm Denise and I'm Kirsten, and we hope you will join us as we explore the ins and outs of building healthy relationships with our adult children. Together, we'll speak with experts, share heartfelt stories and get timely advice addressing topics that matter most to you. Get ready to dive deep and learn to build and nurture deep connections with our adult children and, of course, when to bite our tongues. So let's get started. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Bite your Tongue the podcast. I'm Denise and sadly I'm not here with my co-host, kirsten. This was an episode she really wanted to do, but the timing just didn't work for her this time. I'm so sorry she's missing it.
Speaker 2:Anyway, as many of you know, june is Pride Month and every June we try to do an episode that addresses the LGBTQAI plus community. And we are so excited for today's episode because we're celebrating pride by talking to the Emmy-nominated Matthew Rodriguez. He has hosted and produced the NBC Chicago's top-rated Chicago Today show since 2019. And I just learned he's in his second season for an amazing show. He's the executive producer and host of it's Okay to Ask Questions. The series showcases open and honest conversations with trailblazers in the LGBTQIA plus community, delivering candid dialogue with no topic off limits. And for all of us parents of adult children, with the ever-changing queer community, it's great for us to know it's okay to ask questions. So welcome Matt. I love, first of all, how you start your episodes and I'd like to steal it and start our episode with this. So, listeners, this episode is opening minds and hearts with thoughtful conversation. Welcome Matt.
Speaker 1:I love that. Thank you for noticing our open.
Speaker 2:Well, it's so beautiful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you know, you record these things and you're in a room and you record it and you write something and you see it a thousand times because you're editing with the producers and the editors and you just forget what it all means, you know, and then you release it and people respond and it can be quite overwhelming that it's. It's that original intention that you kind of forgot about because you've been so caught up in the technical part of it. I'm sure you can relate with the podcast I can but it's so beautiful.
Speaker 2:It's so beautiful. So I want to remind you when we get started that our audience is mostly parents of adult kids. So we're talking 55, 65, even into the 70s, and I think in an interview you did with Chicago Magazine, you said that you have an imaginary viewer Betty Sue, yes, jesus, and all the Bobs of the world struggling over understanding the changing face of LGBTQIA community, and we're really hesitant to ask questions. So that's why I love the title of your show. So tell us a bit about your show, why we should watch and how it will help us understand more about this community and how we should approach asking questions.
Speaker 1:Well, that's so funny. I love that you caught up on that. You know, my executive producer from the other show I host, chicago Today, created this imaginary viewer and I used that same scenario for this show because the Betty Sues and the Bobs of the world that live on Main Street that's just a generic name we created for our viewer they do care and, like we were talking before we were recording here, they have that gay cousin or they have that gay nephew or they have that friend who is identifying as transgender now and they can sometimes be a little overwhelmed and not know how to approach it. And I myself, as a gay man, part of the LGBTQIA community, had that same feeling. I had a lot of friends coming up to me and saying can you explain what it is to be non-binary? Can you explain what it is when someone realizes they are transgender and wants to make that transition? I was like I don't know. I don't know. Just because I'm gay and we're kind of on the same side of the street didn't mean I knew everything there was to know, just like they don't know everything about me.
Speaker 1:And with that, when we were trying to create this show, I was kind of expressing that in a meeting and I just blurted out I wish it was okay to ask questions and we said that's the name of the title, because that's the way so many people feel right now. So many people. We've created silos, whether we like it or not. We've created boxes and walls and all that kind of stuff for many reasons, not just about this subject, and I think we're afraid to ask the questions. We're afraid we'll offend, we're afraid we will be misunderstood when we ask the question. So I think if you go forth with intention and love in your heart and joy and listen to the response of the question, that's half of it. The title is only half of it.
Speaker 1:It's okay to ask questions, but you've got to listen to what they say, you've got to digest it. Ask some more questions, maybe step away, come back to it. That's really at the heart of it all and we've done that through these wonderful interviews this season. We have Rosie O'Donnell, who I think a lot of your viewers, your listeners, might know and connect to. We have Jojo Siwa, who's a much younger audience but still an important voice. We have a woman from Los Angeles she is a lesbian, zoya Biglari, and she's from a Persian family, and in Iran, which is where her parents are from, if you come out you could be killed. It is punishable by death. And for her family to come to Los Angeles and then their daughters say I'm a lesbian, that would take them aback, right? And so it took some time for the family to move through this new revelation.
Speaker 1:So we have many stories like that. I've learned so much. I think the viewer can learn so much. I think we come at it with a very gentle, foundational approach at making you know we don't get too too into the weeds Some of the some of the episodes. We can get deeper into definitions and what this means and what that means, but I I think it's something that most people can sit down with a loved one or your family and and take away some really easy bites if that makes sense.
Speaker 2:I agree, and I haven't watched every episode because I only found out about it when I saw you on the Today Show. And congrats on that anyway.
Speaker 1:Oh, my gosh, thank you.
Speaker 2:And we will link how people can watch in our episode notes, but I did watch. There are a few episodes I want to talk about. The first one was season one, episode one with and again you're right, we don't know all these people Shea Coulee, Shea.
Speaker 1:Coulee. Yeah, it was a very well-known drag queen.
Speaker 2:Okay, drag race and is in the drag scene and which is a whole other world. That can seem scary and I'm going to ask you something about that.
Speaker 2:But what I want to ask about this is and she identifies as she, I can use the pronoun she right, I noticed I was trying to make sure I got my pronouns right, because this is hard for us too. She says and I really found this kids are not born in the closet. They go into the closet because they've been told to be ashamed or they're ashamed Expand a little bit on that because that was touching to me. She said she knew by the time she was four.
Speaker 1:Wow, that makes me a little emotional because I hadn't I haven't watched that.
Speaker 2:Oh, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1:No, I hadn't you know. You record these and you.
Speaker 2:I sometimes.
Speaker 1:I forget even what was said and I I can't remember everything, and that just hit me just now because it's very true, I feel like I'm hearing it for the first time. You're just a kid, You're just acting and reacting to the way you see the world. When you come out and slowly, piece by piece, you see how someone reacts to you, see your family or your parents or a neighbor react to another. I'm going to use me as an example. Another little boy acting a little effeminate, and they get a little squeamish and they get a little weird and they're like well, why?
Speaker 2:why are you doing?
Speaker 1:that you should be out there playing with trucks and none of that. And so that's one thing. And then that little boy grows up and they want to be. You know, they want to play piano or they want to dance. Why are you doing that? You should go to soccer, or vice versa for a woman, or you know. There's so many scenarios and, bit by bit by bit, you're putting a little piece of brick in front of them, brick by brick, by brick by brick.
Speaker 1:And then all of a sudden, that kid can't see anymore. Right, that kid can't see out of all the things they've been told they shouldn't be. And why would we do that to someone? Why would we do that to anyone?
Speaker 1:Straight Doesn't matter your race your religion, like let us live organically and free. Shay is absolutely right, I think. And can we fix that? I don't know. It's almost impossible to not put some of your thoughts and beliefs on your children, but make sure you listen to them, because even if they're four to 85, it doesn't matter. People have opinions and thoughts that are organic and come from it with inside, from the day they're born. And if you don't believe that, I'm sorry. It's true. There are certain things that are just in our souls that we cannot hold back.
Speaker 2:That's beautiful. You explained it well because that really touched me, because I think we do that with lots of people, not just queer people. I hate to say this, but the way people look, the way-.
Speaker 1:Oh God the way, whatever it is, if they're not athletic your eyes are a little off your nose. Oh, that nose, oh. Yeah, that nose right, exactly, exactly, Quiet, down your voice is too pitchy, your voice is too high.
Speaker 2:You know mine is oh no, no, I'm thinking my sound is bad, okay, can you imagine?
Speaker 1:can you imagine if I stopped the interview and said your voice?
Speaker 2:well, I would have appreciated you're telling me my sound wasn't good anyway, no, you're okay okay all right, so I'm going to mention two other shows and then we're going to get to a few questions. I love the interview. Interview with ER Fightmaster Again. I have seen them a hundred times. Never knew their name and I've seen them on Grey's Anatomy but anyway, I thought who's ER Fightmaster? Anyway, they explained that they identify as non-binary and their pronouns were they and them. But you asked them how they felt about the new pronouns Zed and Zay. Is that right? Am I saying that right?
Speaker 1:Zed and Zay, and there's Zee and there's many others.
Speaker 2:Are we expected to keep? First tell us what they are, and how are we expected to keep up with all this?
Speaker 1:Well, I mean, you know, if there's a new restaurant in town, you learn the name of that really quickly.
Speaker 2:No, no, we don't at our age, we don't we don't place down there on the corner. It serves Thai food.
Speaker 1:Well, that's why, and so listen. So this is what I think, and I hope I don't. I hope I'm not speaking out of tune because I'm not, or out of out of line because I am not a expert on all of this, no, no, I understand that, don't worry, we understand that. But from what I, what I took away there is, unless somebody tells you they are this specific pronoun, the Z or the Zed, and there are, I've encountered not that many and there might be some but for the most part again, asterisks, from what I understand, I have seen that most people just like they are that and that's quite easy.
Speaker 1:So we have there he, him, she, her and they that. And I know a lot of people say the grammar. But the grammar it's plural. It's great. We use they and ER says this all the time. We use they. You know you leave your glass. I'm like where, where's Denise? They left their glass here. You know you would say they in passing, so I would just lean on the day.
Speaker 2:We've all gotten that and we're working on that, but then all of a sudden all this new stuff comes in. But I think being respectful and if you're talking to someone is the best thing to do, and I think then people understand.
Speaker 1:That's it. I forget people's names. Every day I will meet someone and two minutes later I forget their name. So I think a lot of people just need to remember that part. If you just think about that alone like I can't even remember someone's name sometimes. So just go in with grace, just say remind me again how you like to be referred. That's it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's perfect, Because I never know whether to say what are your pronouns or how you like to be referred. Sometimes I feel like I'm too woke.
Speaker 1:if I say what are your pronouns, I don't think anyone's going to be offended by you saying what are your pronouns, Unless it's someone who's anti any of this and then. Well then, I don't really care right, exactly, but anyone, anyone who's identifying as non-binary is certainly not going to be offended.
Speaker 1:If you ask what their pronouns are now, if they've told you their pronouns 50 times right, right they might eventually like if I told my name to you 50 times, you'd get a little annoyed and I don't get me wrong. I've met people where they like we've met before and I'm like, oh my god, I'm embarrassed and I don't get me wrong. I've met people where they like we've met before and I'm like, oh my God, I'm embarrassed and I don't remember the name. But I think that's a way to think of it.
Speaker 2:I think that helps me All right. Now, though, this one. I hope I pronounced this name right, because I literally made my husband watch this last night. Okay, pigeon Pagonis. Pigeon Pagonis, yes, I want you to tell her story. I'm not going to tell it, okay, because I didn't understand this at all, and the way I want to tell everyone to watch this episode. I think it's season one, is it season?
Speaker 1:one. It's all. These are all season one.
Speaker 2:Okay, these are all season one. Okay, I guess I haven't gotten to season two yet. I'm sorry, I never understood this, so I'd love it explained to me. She was born intersex. But go ahead.
Speaker 1:Intersex and again, I am not a scientist or a doctor or anything. But this is what's different. Intersex is not something pigeon choked, and not that I think someone who's gay chooses this, but this is like when you are intersex. This is like you were physically born this way. There's no debating.
Speaker 2:She was told that her ovaries were removed because she had cancer.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so let's back up Right.
Speaker 2:Okay, go ahead, you do it.
Speaker 1:And gosh, I don't want to mess up her story because you know what?
Speaker 2:They can all watch it. So you do the best you can and then watch it.
Speaker 1:Here's the thing. I won't be specific because I can't remember everything about pigeon because it was a year ago and I. But what I will say is there are people that are born with genitalia and I'm just going to dumb this down body parts from the female side of the spectrum and the male side of the spectrum, Right, and I think in certain cases someone might have actual testicles instead of ovaries, but they aren't descended. So that means they're still like up in the body and you might have an enlarged clitoris, so, but with still an opening that can look like a vagina, but you don't actually have a full uterus with inside of that, if that makes sense. So it's kind of like the body was processing in while in the mother's womb and the it stopped cooking right, Like the body stopped processing it to stop growing and it just reached a certain point. Again, I hope people don't backlash on me and I would love everyone, your audience might remember the word hermaphrodite.
Speaker 1:We don't use that word anymore. Um, some people do, but we don't use that word anymore. Use intersex. And pigeon story was quite remarkable because she was born and they thought, oh you know, she looks more like a girl, so we're going to lean in like her body, her genitalia look more like a girl, so we're going to lean into the fact that she's a girl and they perform certain surgeries on her to make her more of a girl, without ever explaining it to Pigeon or giving her the choice, until she was older and she actually found out by putting the pieces together. So her family kind of knew, but the doctors knew, but they never told her that they told her she had cancer.
Speaker 1:They told her that she had all these surgeries because they needed to prevent her from the cancer from spreading and all these types of things. She actually has a wonderful book explaining all of this. But what had happened was she found out all about this and figured it out later and turns out with certain chromosomes and all of her DNA and I know this is very confusing. She actually would have been better off leaning into being a boy with what she had, but at this point, when she was in college and realized who she was, it was too late that the surgeries had been performed. They had done a surgery to enlarge her vagina Very, very graphic, and it might be too much for some people.
Speaker 2:No, no, it's very enlightening.
Speaker 1:It's very enlightening and Pridgen is so honest and raw and and that conversation was wonderful and and it it's something that people don't talk about and almost 1% of the entire population is intersex. That's a lot of people, millions and millions of people that we, you know, we might know people and you would never even know, because they could, they could present one way on, you know, on their face, but down below there's something else going on and they can be embarrassed and shamed and feel isolated. So when I say the alphabet, the queer alphabet, is what we call it LGBTQIA, the I is intersex.
Speaker 1:Yes, and there's the. There's the struggle for transgender rights. Right, we're trying to let children make a decision early on in their process. If it's supported by the family and supported by the doctors and the child, if they want to make a transition, they should be able to do what they'd like. Now the opposite is true when we're talking about our intersex family, because if they don't have the right to make the decision and the doctors make it for them and it's forced upon them, that's a really horrible situation. So this struggle between intersex rights and trans rights can actually pin the two against each other. So politicians can say oh well, in this case you don't want the doctors to perform anything for these intersex kids, but for the trans kids. All of a sudden, you do want them to do something. So it can get very complicated. There's a lot of shadows there and a pigeon goes into that conversation as well.
Speaker 2:It's a wonderful one and you do a great job. The interview is so wonderful so I really want to listen to that. You know, Katie Couric did a National Geographic show several years ago I don't know if you've watched it called a gender revolution.
Speaker 1:And I remember she did that yeah.
Speaker 2:And I've always encouraged our listeners to watch that, because there are several and I never knew it was intersex and I'm not sure if I watched this so long ago, just like you but a couple of people that their sex like they were born with both genitalia and the doctor decided who they were. And when they became adults they realized they were not a boy, they really were a girl and people were criticizing them and I thought how could you know this person was? Just someone said okay, we're going to choose this and cut everything else off. So that really opened my eyes.
Speaker 1:But I didn't understand the whole intersex thing until right now, or until I watched pigeons and I got to say and it makes you think like, look, if mother nature created this, this child, right, and you can physically see that there's something different, right, like it's, it's not a full vagina, it's not a full penis, whatever they're, and it's all different. These are just examples. It may not even present in that way. There's many ways to be intersex, there's lots of categories. But if Mother Nature can do that, why couldn't it create other different types of people Like, why do we think it's one or the other, when Mother Nature herself has created people that are all in between and in different gray areas? I mean, it's like a physical presentation right there.
Speaker 2:No, you're absolutely right, and when you brought up transgender, I wasn't going to ask this question. In fact, I took it out of my questions. But you know, last month I think her name, sarah Huckabee Saunders, in Arkansas came out that said her state was not going to comply with the federal laws for the treatment of trans students that's right in their schools. How do you feel when you hear these stories that we're trying to go forward and then we get 10 steps back?
Speaker 1:You are putting these kids' lives at risk. You are telling a community that they don't matter, their thoughts don't matter, their beliefs don't matter, and you are putting them at risk of death. That's the bottom line. Children who don't have the ability to transition are and I don't have the exact statistic, but are much, much, much more likely to commit suicide. You're endangering them with themselves and the way they feel about how they exist in the world. And then you're endangering them by telling everyone in the community it's okay to hate on these people. So I'm certainly not all right.
Speaker 2:Oh gosh.
Speaker 1:You're giving them the okay to say no, these people aren't like us. That's not right. We wouldn't do that to anyone. I don't want to do that to anyone. I don't care what side of the political spectrum you're on. Everyone should have their right but to say that these people can't be who they are without it harming or affecting you in any way don't tell me it does, because it doesn't, you can't tell me it does. Give me one example.
Speaker 2:It's very good, good job. Okay, I'm going to ask a couple of little more questions about the show and then I have some listener questions, because it's okay to ask questions right, it's okay to ask questions, and you know what If we're on YouTube?
Speaker 1:here I just want to admit my disgusting smoothie.
Speaker 2:It's just filled with vegetables and goodness, as I'm saying, okay, okay, it looks wonderful and it's why you look so good. So as I was watching some of these, I thought to myself you're interviewing so many celebrities. Have you ever thought of interviewing a regular Joe or Josie? Sometimes people watch and they say, well, you're a celebrity, it's easy for you to you know whatever. How does it feel for someone who's not a celebrity?
Speaker 1:Right, well, I think you know.
Speaker 2:I don't think everyone that we've interviewed has a household name. No, no, half of them aren't household names, but they have a persona Right, but they have a persona and a slight following.
Speaker 1:in some cases, and I'd say in season two, we even found people with more of a quote unquote following. And when I say that, maybe some of your viewers like a large following on Instagram or TikTok.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I've said this many times it certainly doesn't mean that their story is any more important than someone next door where we don't necessarily know who they are. It doesn't, and in fact, that other person might have a more incredible story. The reason we have leaned into some of that now this season we have someone like Jojo Siwa, who is insanely popular with a younger audience, Rosie O'Donnell, really big, really well-known, with an older audience.
Speaker 1:We chose to have some of those people because it makes people watch. And if I can put Rosie's story next to Cody Daigle-Oriens, who is an asexual advocate out of Cleveland Ohio, who is not as well known but it makes someone go and watch that episode, then certainly then I'm amplifying not only Rosie's story, which is valid and important, but also Cody's and then Zoya from who I mentioned earlier, the woman from Los Angeles.
Speaker 1:I try to be very diverse when I'm booking the show, not only in the story being told, but who they might be connected with as an older demographic, as a younger, I like to represent age. If I if I am my way, I would do 15 episodes. We could do, you know, a range of race, but I could only do six and we had to pick and choose and it's who says yes and who says no, and doing that whole puzzle.
Speaker 2:Tell us about Rosie O'Donnell's story. She has a transgender daughter.
Speaker 1:A non-binary child.
Speaker 2:Non-binary Okay, sorry, do you say non-binary daughter? How would I say?
Speaker 1:A non-binary child Child. Okay, non-binary child Child is a neutral. There's no gender associated. I like Rosie's story. Rosie struggles with the pronouns. Rosie has a tattoo on her arm that says they them Like. If Rosie, who is a lesbian known around the world, has trouble remembering that, her own child, my viewer, who is having trouble, can relate to that. That's why I chose Rosie, not because she was the ultimate gap, because of that reason alone, and I think that's really important.
Speaker 2:All right, okay, so you've said. When you came out to your parents, who are old school Catholic, your dad got upset and your mother fell to the floor crying.
Speaker 1:Yeah.
Speaker 2:Okay, so what advice do you have for our generation of parents? When their adult child comes to them, what are some of the things they can say that will be? They don't want to fall to the floor crying. Let's put it that way.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you don't want to do that. And again, I love my parents and-.
Speaker 2:I know you do, and you've said that I don't want to, and it's great that you've been honest, though.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I'm going to be honest and I've been writing a lot about it and I've been reflecting on that time. So who knows what?
Speaker 2:more.
Speaker 1:I'll talk about from that time. But look, I've realized as I've gotten older. I might not have realized it in the moment, but it took me a long time to realize I was gay. Right, it took years and years, and years for me to put pieces together and come to terms with that. And when I did that, I was like oh, okay, I'm good.
Speaker 1:So then, when I told my parents, who had known me for 21 years in a certain way, and they had, regardless of the signs that were there, that might've said I was gay they didn't see those and they just listened to what I said and I was straight, or you know, pretending to date someone, or whatever, whatever I'd say to them, I didn't really talk about dating.
Speaker 1:They thought I was straight. So obviously it took them some time to wrap their heads around it and their minds around it. So I would say, if you need to and you can't say anything in the moment, I would hug your child, kiss them, say I love you and say I just need a moment to process this. I just because I don't want to say the wrong thing, I want to say the right things to you Now. That's like a last minute If you can't get the words out if you feel like you're going to blow up and you're going to explode and cry.
Speaker 1:That's what I would do. I think other people might have different suggestions, but I would just hold them, say I love you and I just need a moment and that's it, because I want to say the right thing to you. So I need to collect my thoughts and I think that would be understandable. Your child might not get it in the moment, but I think as time goes on they might reflect and say oh, I'm glad my parents did that, as opposed to dropping to the floor crying.
Speaker 1:It was a slow fall for my mom. She kind of like it was like a slide off the couch onto her knees and then she came kind of you know some of it is, and I think it's a two sided kind of thing.
Speaker 2:The child who has also decided to come out needs to give their parents some time.
Speaker 2:The parent has to process and I've talked to this about a lot, to a lot of my friends who've young adult kids or teenagers have come out. When you hold your baby in your arms, when they're born, you already are walking them down the aisle. I know it sounds crazy, because weddings aren't even like that anymore. Right, this vision of their life and all of a sudden it changes. It's not that you can't accept that new trajectory for them. You have a son you might have instead of a daughter in law. You're going. You have a son you might have instead of a daughter-in-law. You're going to have a son-in-law, possibly the advancements of I mean, they still might have grandchildren. You know all of that, but you need time to process that as a parent and I hope that on both sides the child who's coming out understands that the parents might need a little time to process it.
Speaker 1:I think some kids would. I think some kids wouldn't. It's going to be, it's just, it's to each each their own. I also think as a parent and I'm not a parent you have to make sure you're dreaming in all different ways for your kids.
Speaker 1:Right, you have to reimagine that dream, because it's not just the Disney snow white story anymore, and it never was by the way it's just what we were told, and that's one of the beautiful things about technology is we've been able to hear so many more stories and it's not going through one filter anymore where there's three TV channels and one newspaper. There's a lot of ways to share information and because of that, there are so many more stories to listen to. So if you are a parent, I also think it's your responsibility to think about all the different ways people can navigate in this world, all the different interests and I'm not just talking about sexuality they could be a TikTok star to an electrician, to like all the ways you can grow and be in this world. There are many, and being open to that, as long as it brings love and joy and no harm, why not?
Speaker 2:You are so incredible. That was so wonderful. It's the first time I've heard that and it really opened my mind. You're right, we need to see a wider world. Yeah, that's it 100% right, that was so good. Okay, so her gay son thinks gays feel inherently flawed and have emotional baggage. This is not my opinion and I think he's being too hard on himself and the gay community. How should I respond when he expresses that to me?
Speaker 1:I that's a hard one, Cause I know that kid, I know like I felt that way. You know, I think when you first come out, there can be some self-hating that even if you've come out, you know I'd come out and I had lived out of the closet for years. Oh my God, it was 10 years. I'd come out and I joined the San Francisco gay Men's Chorus. It's an amazing organization.
Speaker 2:Oh, I know everything about that Okay. Oh, you do, Okay, and we have a gay men's chorus in Denver too.
Speaker 1:There's many across the country Beautiful.
Speaker 1:But anyway. So I had joined this and I was surrounded by 300 men, 300 gay men of all shapes and sizes and beliefs and diversity, and some living very out and proud, and I was so uncomfortable I wanted to quit. I wanted any excuse to get out of this chorus because it made me feel so uncomfortable. And I realized week by week that I was uncomfortable with how open and honest and and true to themselves my fellow chorus mates were and I, even though I was out in Los Angeles I had lived in Los Angeles before moving to San Francisco even though I was out, I was still very much in a straight world. I was with my straight friends, I did straight things, which I love, there's nothing wrong with that but I hadn't, but I hadn't been around as many gay people. I had kind of isolated myself and I realized it was because I was kind of hating that side of me deep down subconsciously.
Speaker 1:And when I was with my gay brothers of the San Francisco Gay Men's Chorus they were kind of like cracking me open to another side of me, like a more, maybe a little bit more, of a flamboyant side, maybe a little bit more a side that wanted to be a little bit more free about my sexuality, that I always felt shame from that.
Speaker 1:I always felt like I needed to hide. I don't want to make people think like they were shoving this down my throats. It was just an honest, beautiful way of living where they were proud who they were and and so that took time and I and I don't know this, this gentleman or this person's story, but you know, maybe they need to experience more. Maybe they need to find their community so that they see that there are many, many, many queer people who don't feel any sense of pain or sadness. I think oftentimes the only stories we hear about the LGBT community are negative ones and my struggle coming out and my struggle finding out I was transgender. But many times there's no problem at all and they have a beautiful story and they live their life with joy and freedom and they're okay. So I would try and help him find those stories, and that might take a little work and find that community, depending on where they live, may take a vacation, but that takes time. It takes time.
Speaker 2:So you brought up this whole idea of flamboyant and someone did write. You know I have no problem with the gay community. Why the flamboyance? What is important about the flamboyance to the gay community?
Speaker 1:Number one. It's not everybody, it's not.
Speaker 2:No, no, no, that's right.
Speaker 1:I don't think you're saying that, but I mean it's look at your friends, look at your straight group of friends. Are they all different? Is one loud, is one quiet, is one more dramatic? That is who we are, and why would we be any different just because it's some rainbow fabric, and that's not always what it is. It's just expression, and when you really, if you could just take a minute, Okay. To think about sometimes what flamboyant means, and it sometimes it means makeup and a dress on it.
Speaker 2:I'm referring to like a gay guy which is what I think you're. That's what I'm referring to too.
Speaker 1:A gay guy wearing makeup and a wig and stuff. It is just. It is a made up thing. Makeup is not a real. It doesn't come from any place, but a human made it up and said we're going to put it on the girl instead of the guy. These are all made up things that humans have created and someone just said no, that belongs on a girl and a guy. If you believe in God and you think God is taking the time to worry about who's wearing mascara and who isn't, I'm sorry.
Speaker 2:There are some bigger Well, you just made that so clear.
Speaker 1:Right, that's my style.
Speaker 1:It's not your style and it's their style. That's it. It just happens to be something that was labeled as feminine. That's all it is. And that's made up. And, just like women, you're told to shave your legs who? And that's made up. And just like women, you're told to shave your legs who, what, what is that? I mean, you know, do what you want, but, like your whole life, you've had to shave your legs because some company came up with an idea to create razors and sell them to you. If you don't think it's because someone's making money off of telling you to shave your legs, I'm not telling you not to, I'm just saying it's all about my.
Speaker 1:All of these products are made up. It's not real. We weren't born that way.
Speaker 2:They're all just things.
Speaker 1:I think, if you can think of it that way, you wouldn't care if a woman's in a tie and a man's wearing stilettos.
Speaker 2:No, you see a woman in a tie, it doesn't bother. I wouldn't say bother you. You're not as shocked when you see someone that's you know, whatever. But you would also be shocked if a woman, a regular, straight woman, walked into a room completely flamboyant color and life and love and living out loud.
Speaker 1:And I will say, when I was in the course I felt the same way. I was like why are these guys so flamboyant? Why are they so out? And I just realized it was because it made me uncomfortable with the issues I had. It was bubbling up things in myself because I felt shame if I were to do that.
Speaker 1:Maybe, deep down inside. I was a little jealous that they were having that fun, and I don't wear wigs and mascara and makeup all the time, but if I want to try it, well, I should be able to. And I have and it's been fun, but I don't do it all the time.
Speaker 2:You're right. I am so glad I've had this opportunity to talk to you. Okay, this is my last question and then I'm going to go back to the show real quickly. But one parent said what do you say to parents who are afraid for their children? I mean, we had the bombing in Colorado Springs. They're afraid of bullying, they're afraid possibly of being not getting the job they want because someone doesn't want a gay person working at their whatever being hurt. How can we help parents feel? I guess anytime your kid is in a marginalized community you worry about that.
Speaker 2:I know lots of parents that worry about it.
Speaker 1:And my parents were the same way. And that's where a lot of their concern came from was they were afraid that I was going to live this awful life. Now, slowly, as they became more educated and watched me navigate through the world, they're like oh well, in fact he's living a world right. There's risks, there's a lot of violence and it's not just gay and straight. I would say what you can do to help them feel more safe and be more safe is be vocal, stand up for for your gay son or your transgender daughter.
Speaker 1:Be an ally, because that is what opens minds and hearts. You having this podcast and bringing me to viewers that might not have ever heard my story or heard about my show, that is a step in the right direction. I got this beautiful email. And if you want to cut it out, but I just got this beautiful email this morning from a man in Kentucky and he says and if you want, I'll read it no read it.
Speaker 2:Please read it, and if you want, I'll read it.
Speaker 1:And if you don't read it, please read it. He said I'm a cisgender, which means, just for anyone who doesn't know, that just means they identify as a man Like they were born male.
Speaker 1:They are male. They're straight, cisgender, straight white male. I have every privilege that can be bestowed upon a child at birth in this country, except the wealthy part, which I thought was funny. After seeing you on the Kelly Clarkson show, I decided to binge. It's Okay to Ask Questions.
Speaker 1:I've always considered myself an ally but, living in rural Kentucky, I don't have many queer friends to dive into discussion with. So your show was an eye-opener. Hearing Rosie O'Donnell mislabel her daughter let me know that it's okay for their parents to make a mistake. It's okay for me to do so as well, so long as we're genuine in trying to learn. After watching 11 episodes of your show, I decided to take action. Today, a small group of open-minded people tough to find out in the country met for the first time as a team to discuss bringing a pride festival to our small town next June. I just want to thank you for your motivation, the education and for giving queer educators a platform to teach. If that email doesn't sum up what we're trying to do with this show and what this conversation is about, Did that bring you to tears?
Speaker 1:Yeah, it did. Rural Kentucky, did you say Rural Kentucky? And I don't know this man and just I found that he got my email some way and reached out, and if that is the one thing that comes out of this show, that is huge. I said to him.
Speaker 2:I want to come like let me know when you do this pride, I'll show up.
Speaker 1:All right, like, let me know when you do this pride, I'll show up.
Speaker 2:All right. Well, I was going to ask you the last question what do you want people to get from your show? But I think that email wrapped it up. So, that's a perfect way to end and I just can't thank you enough for joining us. It was really great.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. Thank you, and just thank you for wanting to learn and be open to this conversation. That's all we can all do, right?
Speaker 2:That's it Right exactly.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:Well, that's a wrap. I just love Matt Rodriguez. That's all I'm going to say. I hope that everyone listening will tune in to his show. It's okay to ask questions. It's on Peacock. I'll put a link in the episode notes on how to watch it. You can also watch all of season one on youtube at least I found it on there. Everything he said is not just about pride month or the gay and lesbian community, the queer community as they say now, but about all people. What a warm, wonderful personality and something we all can learn from. Tune in. It's okay to ask questions with Matt Rodriguez. Thank you to Connie Gorn Fisher, our audio engineer. Please send us your questions at biteyourtonguepodcast at gmailcom and log on to our website, biteyourtonguepodcastcom. Feel free to buy us a virtual cup of coffee. It's only $5. It helps us continue to do our work. Thanks everyone, and remember, unless you're asking questions because it's okay to ask questions remember sometimes you have to bite your tongue. You.
