Season 3 Episode 83 Don't Bite Your Tongue with Dr. Ruth Nemzoff

Would you like to unlock the secrets to building deeper, more rewarding relationships with your adult children?

Join us in this BONUS episode rewind for a compelling conversation with Dr. Ruth Nemzoff, author of "Don't Bite Your Tongue: How to Foster Rewarding Relationships with Your Adult Family." 

Ruth shares her invaluable insights on transitioning from a central role in your children's lives to finding a new way to connect as they gain independence. We explore the delicate balance of offering advice without alienating your adult children and the nuances of maintaining a loving and supportive relationship through thoughtful and timely communication.

We tackle the practicalities and emotional challenges of redefining relationships when adult children return home or continue living at home. Learn essential strategies for setting clear expectations, negotiating roles, and offering the right kind of support. We delve into real-life scenarios to provide actionable advice on balancing household responsibilities, encouraging independence, and fostering mutual respect. Gain a deeper understanding of evolving social norms around intergenerational living and the importance of self-awareness in navigating these new dynamics.

Finally, we venture into the realm of communication and boundaries, offering insights on how to navigate relationships with in-laws and manage family dynamics. Discover the power of open communication, humor, and positivity in diffusing tension and enhancing connections. Ruth's wisdom reminds us that while relationships are inherently imperfect, thoughtful communication and a willingness to understand different family cultures can transform friction into closeness. Tune in for personal anecdotes, practical advice, and a heartfelt discussion on maintaining harmony and intimacy within your family.

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Chapters

• 0:06 Navigating Relationships With Adult Children
• 12:48 [Ad] Modem Futura
• 13:33 (Cont.) Navigating Relationships With Adult Children
• 14:26 Establishing Boundaries With Adult Children
• 19:38 Navigating Parental Expectations and Realities
• 27:53 Connecting Through Everyday Conversations
• 34:57 Parenting Lessons Through Intimacy
• 44:57 Navigating Relationships With in-Laws
• 50:58 Navigating Communication and Boundaries

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:06

Hey everyone, it's Denise. Today's episode is also an episode rewind. I hope you're enjoying some of these. This one is with author Ruth Nesvoff. She wrote a book Don't Bite your Tongue how to Foster Rewarding Relationships with your Adult Family. So she claims it's better not to bite your tongue. She says bringing up important topics builds intimacy, but there's a right and wrong way to do it. So I hope you'll listen, even if you've listened before, and learn something today from Root. Thanks everyone. Let's get started and learn something today from Ruth. Thanks everyone. Let's get started.

Speaker 1: 0:49

And you've been hearing about letting go since you know you sent your kid to nursery school and they tell you to let go. But the truth is, why would we want to let go of our children? We have spent more hours working with our kids, more money lost, more sleep than any job. Anything we've done, it's really taken it out of us. What we really want to do is transform the relationship, and transforming that relationship also involves giving them some credit for having grown up. So welcome to another episode of Bite your Tongue, the podcast. I apologize, my voice is not so great today. I've been sick not COVID, mind you without a voice for nearly three weeks. So I'm very, very happy Ellen's with me today. Ellen, it's episode 40. And last night I was thinking, okay, we're heading into episode 40, and it's taken me so long to figure something out, and I think it was our guest's book that helped me figure this out.

Speaker 1: 1:49

I'm not sure the task at hand is truly building healthy relationships with our adult children, but instead figuring out our relevancy. Where we sit in. For so long we've been so relevant, in fact actually sort of in charge, and suddenly, as our kids become young adults, we're no longer in charge. They are, and we need to figure out what our role is, or maybe what they want our role to be. Do you agree with me? What do you think about that? Oh, completely. I mean, I think we have to figure out what our role is to them. We also have to figure out and I've said this from, I think, our very first podcast we have to figure out what our role is for us.

Speaker 1: 2:39

Right, for maybe 18 years and another four to six years, we were semi-relevant a lot of times just because we were a resource, either a financial resource or sometimes a resource for a place to live for a while, but then starts to fade, and even that part of the journey is pretty difficult too. So it's particularly true when our adult children are doing what they're supposed to do, when they're becoming independent, when they're doing all the things that we've wanted them to do. So, yeah, I think relevance is an important topic, well, and I think our ego gets involved a little bit. We feel bad, we're not so relevant. And when you don't have a lot going on in the rest of the other part of your life, which you said, developing our own journey through older adulthood then you get even more anxious. And it makes me think of episode 34, when we interviewed Dr Carl Bellmer from Cornell and he pointed out that psychological term I'd never heard of intergenerational state, and it really basically means that the parent's investment in the relationship with their adult children is so much greater than the children's investment in that relationship. It doesn't mean they don't love us any less, but they're busy building their own lives. We've built ours, we've had our children. So, yeah, they love us, but they don't need to talk to us every day, they don't need to know what we made for dinner. You know that sort of thing, and there may be some struggle and lots of ups and downs, but it doesn't mean it's not a loving relationship. It's just different from the one we had before. Well, that gets us right to today's podcast.

Speaker 1: 4:16

We named our podcast Bite your Tongue because all along, most believe the adage bite your tongue, loosen your purse strings and wear beige. Today's guest will counter all of that. In fact, she believes that biting your tongue or silence, doesn't build intimacy. She says that giving advice is not at all bad. We just must learn to do it right so we don't alienate our children, or that they just stop listening to us because we're talking too much. So I'm excited to introduce her, because I've always wondered how you build authentic relationships if you're biting your tongue all the time. And even though it's a lot easier to build relationships with friends, it's almost impossible to know day to day how to do this in a way that's really helpful to our kids.

Speaker 1: 5:02

And so today we're welcoming Dr Ruth Nemzoff, the author of a book that completely contradicts the title of our podcast not the podcast itself, just the title. Her book is called Don't Bite your Tongue how to Foster Rewarding Relationships with your Adult Children, and it's garnering lots of attention. As one reviewer said, it offers parents of adult children a way to take the bite out of what can be complex relationships. Ruth is also the author of Don't Roll your Eyes Making In-Laws Into Family and is a resident scholar at Brandeis Women's Studies Research Center. She's also a parent of four adult children. Gives her a lot of credibility with us. Welcome, ruth, we're glad you're with us Well, thanks.

Speaker 1: 5:46

I like to first contradict you when you talk about the title of the book. The title of the book was actually picked by the marketing department. As a first time author, you don't have any choice, of course, so I was very upset, but it turned out it sold well, so I'm very happy. But the truth is, the message of the book is think about how to say it, what to say it, when to say it. And if I were writing it today, I'd have a whole chapter on what medium to say it, because we have so many choices of different ways of saying things and part of that meeting is non-verb, in other words, the medium of texting, of course, but also you can sometimes communicate with people by as I'm sure your friends have done for you with chicken soup, flowers, with chocolates, with just actions, by just going for a walk. So actually I had to straighten that out.

Speaker 1: 6:42

I'd also like to just relate to a couple of other things you said, which is when I talk about giving advice to children. I think it's perfectly okay to give advice. It's just not okay to expect them to follow it, and you need to make that clear to them that this is one idea, and I hope you'll gather other ideas. This is not only one idea. I want you to tell you why I think what I think, because you may be completely out of date, you may be completely off base and you help them have a frame of reference how to judge your advice. Well, you kind of started us off because we had a list of questions, but now I'm going to ask you this because this is top of mind to me. Sure, so you say that and I think with my own adult children, I try and do that. I might give advice and I'd say but you know, I'm out of the loop these days. I don't know what the work, I really don't know the work environment. Socially, things are much more casual. You know all that sort of thing.

Speaker 1: 7:38

However, one of our guests said and you might know she's from New York, jane Isay, who wrote oh, I know Jane, you know, jane, yeah, and I loved interviewing her. And she said and I really believe this when a parent speaks, it's like a giant megaphone, right? So what they take, they take to their heart. So, even if they don't agree with what you're saying, I'm worried what I say they might take too seriously when I'm completely wrong. So I worry about giving the advice where, even if they disagree with me and sometimes they'll come back with that makes, doesn't make any sense.

Speaker 1: 8:13

Mom, blah, blah, blah, and the same was my parents. Yet it still stayed with me and I don't want something that I say that's totally off the track to stay with them. Yeah, I have the same experience too, denise, that it's just like sometimes I just say something that's a joke or something that you know oh, you're doing that. Now I don't really care that they're doing that, it's just a clog, you don't, but it sounds judgmental. Yeah, yeah, how do you get that judgmental part out of it?

Speaker 1: 8:41

Okay, well, first I want to say you know, we think we're more powerful than we are and we're very frightened of using that power because we used to be all powerful. But it might not be a secret to you that your kids have figured out. You're not all powerful, even though at the same time they hear your words in high fidelity, or I guess now we'd call it Dolby surround sound. But at any rate they hear us. At moments of real stress, like a wedding or a birth of a child or anything like that, that sound is so loud and is so big. So we need, in our thinking, to take that into consideration. Timing is always a big thing, you know. We need to realize that there are certain moments when things are really loud. Now we also have to give our children some credit, for while in fact they do react emotionally, they may 10 years later, 20 years later, 30 years later, see it very differently. Years later, 20 years later, 30 years later, see it very differently.

Speaker 1: 9:47

And I'm sure all of you both of you and our audience out there have things that our parents said to us that we thought were horrible at the time and now either we think they're funny or very age, kind of like an antique curtain or something. But it also might have resonance, and I think in Don't Bite your Tongue, I use the example of my mother, you know, telling me to write thank you notes, and the faster you write your thank you note, the less good it has to be. And I was, oh, mother, you know, mother. And now I think of that all the time. I'm going to send that email immediately, because it doesn't have to be as good if I wait three months and finally have to say something brilliant. What do you think about thank you notes? Yes, I still say don't forget to send them a thank you note. Should I never say that? Well, I think by now your children have probably figured out how to block it out and they've internalized it enough.

Speaker 1: 10:40

So I think that the society, one of the things we talk about, is letting go, and you've been hearing about letting go since you know you sent your kid to nursery school and they tell you to let go. But the truth is, why would we want to let go of our children? We have spent more hours working with our kids, more money lost, more sleep, than any job, anything we've done. It's really taken it out of us. What we really want to do is transform the relationship, and transforming that relationship also involves giving them some credit for having grown up and realizing that we don't control everything.

Speaker 1: 11:21

So I understand when you say it feels like a loss that we aren't all powerful. It was great, you know, when we could kiss and make that boo-boo go away. It was wonderful, you know how powerful can you be, but the truth is it gives us some freedom also A freedom, as you said here, to build your own life. A freedom to not be responsible for everything they do, because in fact, we aren't responsible. There are many other forces affecting them than just us With that.

Speaker 1: 11:56

So that brings me to a part of your book, this paragraph I really like, where you actually talk about what you're talking about now, where you know we're a time, you're in charge and that we need to let go. You say letting go is not a solution. It is better to craft new ways of connecting, ways that recognize our mutual needs, including our own feelings about being interrupted or being in a need to develop ways of relating to our grown-up children at each stage of their maturation. If we are not thoughtful and careful, we can unwittingly and gradually phase our children out of our lives, first with sleepovers, eventually leaving them at college and finally by creating completely separate lives. The result can be disconnected families. Rather than letting go, let's develop new ways of relating. That's beautiful, yeah. So here's what I want to know, though.

Speaker 1: 13:29

We get a lot of questions about failure to launch. You're right, we are giving your kids credit for building their own lives. You came to us via Judith Smith, right, you know, judith? She recommended you to us via Judith Smith, right, you know, judith? She recommended you to us and she wrote that wonderful book on parenting difficult adults. Where do you stand with that? I mean, it's such a burden when your children aren't launching, and how do you face that? Do you have any advice for that? Well, first of all, failure to launch it has changed dramatically in the last three years. Well, failure to launch it has changed dramatically in the last three years. So up until then, if your child moved back home in many echelons of society or any stratus of society or various groups, that was considered a failure. Now it's considered a wise economic decision because the economy has changed.

Speaker 1: 14:19

So I think I try to give in the book a recipe for how you go about changing these relationships. And when I say a recipe, it's not a recipe like from Gourmet Magazine, it's a recipe from the peasants, our forebearers. In other words, you work with what you've got. It's like going into the fridge, seeing what you have and conjuring up a meal, as opposed to following you know three cups of this and two cups of that. So the first thing is knowing ourselves, because we want to make sure that when our kids say to us, oh you're just doing that so you can brag to people, they might be right and we need to own that. But secondly, we need to know the environment, and what is failure to launch for one person may not be failure to launch for another.

Speaker 1: 15:10

So in many societies kids live with their parents until they marry, and it could be age 40, age 34, whatever. That hasn't been the norm here, it may become the norm. Now we began to see some of the benefits of intergenerational living. Those with grandchildren became more involved. Parents needed help, so I would say that is in flux right now. Another thing is training periods are much longer, so your children might, for example, have life and death responsibility as, let's say, a surgical intern or a surgical resident. They're almost 40 years old by the time that happens and so they're in some ways very independent, but in others they may need a little assistance from you financially. So that's one kind. Now Judith is talking about cases where the children are truly having problems beyond the normal storm and drama of life. Right, but I guess how do you figure that out when your child even though it's the norm and the kids in your basement living are in their bedroom? How do you divvy up roles and responsibility? They're no longer the teenager going to school every day. What are your expectations and how do you set them? Oh, you are so right, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 16:29

When the kids come home, whether for short or long visits, but particularly for long visits, sit down, make the deal clear. Do you have to pay rent? What do you have to do in terms of the minutiae of household chores? Right? So can you leave the laundry in the laundry room? Do you have to take it out of the dryer and bring it into your own room? Can you leave the coffee cups in the living room? Whatever, you need to negotiate in advance. What is the deal? Are we paying in money? Are we paying kind? Are you expected to cook once a week? Are you expected to tell me if you're going to be home after midnight, which very often the kids will say Mom, I'm, you know, 30 years old. I don't really care where you're going, I just need to know whether I should leave the light on or not, and I think they can laugh with you about that. But really making the minutiae clear is very important, and not only that, but having a method to look back and see is this working, is it not? Can you have guests in the house? Can they be overnight guests, et cetera. That's hard.

Speaker 1: 18:02

So I'm going to give you a real-life situation for my young best, because he's sort of in between these two poles and I am in a situation had made different choices when he was younger, like finishing doing all the things that I would have suggested. I did suggest to him that he didn't. So now he's in a situation where, you know, he's in his late 20s, he doesn't have the job that he wants, and it's hard because I want to give him direction and maybe even support. This is where it gets tricky, and I think I see a lot of other parents in this situation where they have a child who's who's launch-ish, like he's sort of launched, but he's not quite successful in his eyes, not in mine. For me, success is do I not pay your phone bill at age 30? And that's good enough for me. You know, if you're, if you're reasonably happy living on your own, but it's that sort of like.

Speaker 1: 18:49

How much advice do we give at that age? It's almost like the advice you would give to an 18 year old in some ways. What would you suggest? Oh well, first of all, I'd congratulate him and really be positive about he has what he has accomplished, which is supporting himself. That is not a small deal that you can support yourself and really let him know how proud you are of that. And if you just say, look, I want to talk about this, I know you seem unhappy and if I can be of any help, I would be happy to do it. And then you can outline, say I just want to talk about it. We don't have to talk about it many times.

Speaker 1: 19:31

But, for example, if you want to go back to college, I want you to know I will pay, I won't pay, what percentage you would pay, or whatever. Or you could move back home so you could save money and you could pay. There are many options. I think that's the thing with we're so limited in yes or no. There are many options you could present to him and say, look, you don't have to tell me now, we don't have to discuss it again. I just want you to know the kind of support I'm willing to be if you decide to do that Now, one of the ways. Also, he has many options because, you know, we think of college, that those four years, you know, and it has to be after high school. In fact, we're living knowing the environment. We're living at a time where many, many options are open. There are weekend colleges, there are online colleges, there are still evening classes, you know, and so he doesn't necessarily have to give up books and just open up the discussion in terms of the myriad of possibilities and what your role could be if he wants it to be, and if he doesn't, that's OK too.

Speaker 1: 20:37

You know, you gave some great advice out here that I didn't really think of, and I think this is really good for parents. You need to be prepared for these conversations. Absolutely, do your homework, like you said, like present him with options. Well, I've got to do some thinking about that on my own, like what is OK for me Again, sort of like that whole idea about we've got to figure out us and what we can tolerate, what we want, you know, as well as listening to them. It really is a two-way street, right? That's exactly what the point of the whole book is that relationships are between people and there are two people involved and you can't diss one or the other.

Speaker 1: 21:15

The idea of silencing the parent doesn't make sense, nor silencing the child. The idea of silencing the parent doesn't make sense, nor silencing the child. Yeah, exactly so, ruth. That brings me to another point in your book and I want to bring something up afterwards. But you talk about parents silencing their voices and how we want to reclaim them. I pulled a little section out and you write Parents have lost their own voices and need to reclaim them, as words are an important element in building more equal and adult relationships with our kids.

Speaker 1: 21:48

Unsaid often puts more pressure on loved ones than what is spoken, because the receiver of the silence makes his own interpretation and has little chance to correct the misunderstanding. Asking questions or offering opinions that encourage interaction, rather than making pronouncements or remaining silent, can be supportive of a child's independence. Sometimes, however, if we wait until our anger has passed, until a moment when we can see the other's perspective, we can select words that are more loving and calm rather than angry or insulted. We do this in our work lives After all, we do not confront every situation at the moment it occurs, but wait until we've calmed down. Every situation at the moment it occurs, but wait until we've calmed down. So that's about self-control. It's about really realizing that.

Speaker 1: 22:49

I know that when my daughter walks into the room before I've even formed the thought, she'll say you don't like this outfit, do you? And she's right? She's right, she's absolutely right. So our children know us. They are brilliant psychologists. They recognize that raise of the eyebrow, that slight look, that harm. So instead of having them misinterpret it there was a great show on the NPR about the mind and how people misinterpret others' actions all the time. But if you talk about it, you get a chance to see. Maybe it has a different meaning. And I want to go to what Ellen said. You said as long as they're paying their phone bill, you know you're okay, I'm not that person. I, way down the road, is the job going to sustain them for the rest of their lives?

Speaker 1: 23:42

But you write a whole section on acknowledging your dreams for yourself and for your child. All parents have dreams for their children. You know you say goodbye to fantasy and hello to reality. Can you talk about that If we're all facing that reality? They were going to be president in second grade. Don't you know that they were going to be president in second grade? Don't you know that? And not to mention a terrific ballet dancer and the adventure from the next grade? Right, exactly.

Speaker 1: 24:14

So the first thing is recognizing our conflicting dreams, and certainly in our own lives we lived that. We thought we could be the greatest worker on earth and have a fabulous career and a fabulous mother, and it was going to be easy peasy. Well, we know how hard it was right. So I think it's the reality, facing the reality. You have a child who's supporting themselves or not, but living happily, maybe taking the scenic road to adulthood, but this is what you have. And so, one of the good things of this, we have our personalities. Some of us are classful, some of us are empty, but we can work on that. We can say, okay, I know me, I'm thinking, oh, this guy's going to be living on the street because he lost his job yesterday, and that may be true, but probably it's not. And maybe thinking about how you yourself first always look to yourself, can maybe begin looking on the positive. I think reframing things in a positive way is one of the greatest tools we have, and if your child is a good person and be kind to others and kind to you. It's a pretty good thing.

Speaker 1: 25:28

You know, it's really hard to raise children and we have learned a lot from that. Yeah, yeah, it is hard to say goodbye to those dreams, because our children in some ways are. We always think of them as our greatest creation. This is the best thing I've ever done raising my children. Many of us say that and then to think that, well, this is the age where we're like, they're not going to be president, they might not even be a CEO and they might not want that. In fact, you know, they start to tell us especially this generation, I'd rather not have that CEO job, I'd rather just live a little bit and not do what you did. So a lot of the things that we dream for them aren't happening because they don't want them Absolutely and it's a loss for us in some way. Well, I think you've brought up a really important thing.

Speaker 1: 26:20

So we as parents, our ego, is very much involved with our children. It's like our report card. You know, did we get an A? But the fact of the matter is we don't control that number one and number two. We rarely take credit for their successes. We mostly take credit for their failures. It's because of me that they didn't get an A in exam, forgetting that they went out all night drinking and forgot to study. They have some part in this, and I always find that fascinating.

Speaker 1: 26:56

If I asked a group of parents, what did you do wrong with your kids, the discussion could go on for days. If I asked tell me one thing you did right, the silence is deafening. Why don't we beat ourselves up like that? I think that's absolutely true, so true, and I think and we've discussed this in a couple other podcasts in a different way that parents of adult children don't want to share their struggles and the ego, because the ego's in the way. They don't want to say you know, sammy's really struggling because he lost his job. The parent won't say that. They'll say I'm so proud and it's now been promoted to X, y or Z. They won't ask for advice from friends on how to help their adult kid because they're embarrassed. Okay, so let me say that's one of the reasons we're quiet. The other reason is because out of respect for our children. So it's true too.

Speaker 1: 27:46

That's when, when the kids were little and we were in my day we had the coffee clutch, I think your people, yeah. And we had play groups. Okay, play you. You're in the play group and you say you know I'm having trouble, johnny won't let go of his bottle. We talk about that and partly because that whole struggle of whether drinking the with the bottle or the cup is universal and also we're trying to figure it out. But now we have to respect our children's privacy, so that makes it a little bit more complicated. That's true, it isn't just that we're trying to portray to the world an image, but why is there so much dragging?

Speaker 1: 28:23

I feel like I go to a dinner and the first thing people say is how's Katie and Charlie, or how's their living Wonderful? What you know? They're great, but I try not to go into too many specifics. When they're still living here, are they still doing this? No, I don't know where to go from there. And then the question is are you nervous because of them or because of you, because you are afraid you'll be judged? That is a very interesting question. We always have to look at ourselves first. What is it that troubles us about our friends asking?

Speaker 1: 28:53

Some people are asking out of genuine love for your kids, and you would probably have a different reaction than with some casual person who was, you know, you met in a football game in sixth grade. Definitely, again, it's the relationship of the conversation, and perhaps it's appropriate, with that person who you're not close with when they're asking about your kids, to be a little bit. Oh, they're doing great. Yeah, you're absolutely right. With people that are close to me, I don't mind Right as much. Their lives are down as flow. No one's getting married, no one's having a baby, no one's changing jobs. It's not about me or them, I just don't have much to offer. Well, first of all, that's true and perhaps that's appropriate. But it's also true that, on the one hand, you are right no one's getting married unless you miss the invitation. So what? And don't laugh about that, because we are no longer always invited to the wedding You're right and anyway.

Speaker 1: 29:52

So when a lot is happening in their lives, because life is made up of lots of little everyday things, and one of the things I say to parents is don't make every conversation a big conversation. The way we relate to people is through the dailiness of life. You know, when life didn't turn, I was so frustrated, I was late. You know, it's the little teeny things, and that's a wonderful way to relate to your kids, to start relating to kids. Just don't think you enjoy doing.

Speaker 1: 30:22

And I think, if you look on your relationships, we've had a lot of experience. We've changed our relationship from the baby to the toddler, right, we no longer carry kids around, we let them walk all the way to the other side of the room and eventually cross the street and so forth. So we've learned how to take the relationship and build it and then gradually, we let them, you know, cross the main streets and go off on their own. We also have had experiences in our volunteer life, working with other people in the community, some of whom we liked, some of whom we didn't like. And how about at work? We've worked with a lot of people. So, whether it's paid or unpaid, we have learned some lessons in building relationships and also with friends.

Speaker 1: 31:06

How do you build a new friendship? Okay, you meet a person, you start talking, you find things in common, right? Oh, you've been to Philly. I was in Philly once, right? Did you go to the Barnes Museum? Oh, you went down to Rittenhouse Square. I was once there. Tell me about it, right? So that's how you begin to build a relationship on little nothings. So we're almost starting from scratch. Go ahead, ellen.

Speaker 1: 31:31

What's interesting is that as adults, we approach other adults with children first with asking about their children. Do you know what I mean Like in that conversation? Why do we do that? Why don't I ask you what's going on for you? Not what's going on with your children, but what's going on? I just feel like we need to put our own sort of self out there and be asking questions of each other about our own lives, even if we're not doing anything. What about our inner lives? This is a really interesting time of life to grow old, and that's a great way to shift the discussion. You know my kids are great. You know all's going well there, and I will tell you what I'm doing.

Speaker 1: 32:13

I'm really excited about this podcast I'm running and so forth, but I would say some of that is quite gendered and ageist in that you know they'll ask the men how's work going? How's your golf game Exactly? How's retirement if they're not working? One of the things I notice now that my hair has turned gray, I say to young people you know I got this for free, that you have to pay for. You know now that gray is the fashion that's for young people. I notice people are afraid to say to me what are you doing these days, because they don't know if I retire, if I don't. I think it's looking at people's effort to communicate rather than the words they say, and just taking it as I'm trying to just connect with you and help them connect. You know we can help by telling them something about ourselves and asking about them. Yeah, absolutely yeah. And now a word from our sponsor. Hello everyone.

Speaker 1: 33:16

As you know, for the last few episodes we've been talking a lot about Shaper Mint bras. Many of you have been ordering them, loving them and, of course, using the 20% off with the Bite your Tone promo code. Connie Gort Fisher, our audio engineer, is joining me today because she's loving some Shaper Mint products. I've not even tried what are you loving, connie?

Speaker 1: 33:37

Hey, denise, well, you know I really didn't need any bras, so I went to Shaper Mint just to kind of see what was there, and boy was I surprised. I ended up ordering two pair of leggings, one specifically to work out in for exercise and the other one for everyday wear, and they've got these great front pockets which I love. But the best thing, denise, is when I wear them, my legs feel great. That's great. I'm going to look at that and see whether I should get some too. Did you remember to use the 20% off promo code, the Bite your Tongue code? I did, thank you, in fact, it was so great I ended up throwing in a pack of underwear who doesn't need nice smoothing underwear? And used the 20% off promo code. So that was great. Thanks again.

Speaker 1: 34:20

Well, there you have it. There's so much from Shaperment. They even have bathing suits. If you're planning on going somewhere warm this winter, just log on to Shapermentcom and put in the promo code BiteYourTongue. No spaces at checkout for an extra 20% off. And you know, right now they have so many great deals for the holidays. When you add that 20% on to the great deals they have now, you're practically getting these items free. All right, everyone. Let's get back to today's episode.

Speaker 1: 34:50

The thing I wanted to bring up was and I love this part of your book. I'm sure you can talk a lot about it intimacy and irritation go hand in hand. Oh, my favorite. I have been a strong proponent of this. Sometimes my daughter and I will argue about something, to the point that both of us will be in tears and we hug each other at the end and I say this is what brings us closer, absolutely. I mean, I think anyone who has had a relationship knows how intimacy and irritation go hand in hand. I mean the famous example of the toothpaste cap. You know being on or off, do you leave the dishes in the sink, do you not? It's all the small things you know, we get to know each other. To say, do you not? It's all the small things you know, we get to know each other. But it's also talking about the difficult things and I think that's don't bite your tongue where sometimes and I want you to talk about this you say it's very important for the parent. I know you have to pick the right time and have the tools and all of that, but don't sit on it. Talk about it.

Speaker 1: 35:52

Yes, sometimes, if you're really, really hurting, you can say to the child I need to talk about this because it's bothering me and be clear on that. And sometimes you can say to the child I'm going to say it once, I need you to know that you have heard this and then I'm not going to bring it up again. So this is often true with various habits, whether it's smoking, eating, you know, whatever. If you think you're the first person to say to your child you're overweight, and, of course, what is overweight. But you can say I worry about your health, I want you to know that, and then you really have to not say it again. That's my biggest problem. Yes, for all of us. And your body language will come into account, right, because even if you don't say it, are you sure you want that second mindset, right? Exactly, that's saying it in a different way. Yes, so I have a question that goes to this intimacy and irritation, which I love as well.

Speaker 1: 36:50

You have some thoughts about visits, long and short visits, and I'm really interested because that sort of gets into that area as well. I'm also trying to figure out what's the perfect length of time for me to visit a child who lives out of town, what I have Denise to stay with when I visit my son who lives in Denver. But if I didn't have that, what would be? And even if you do like, what kind of guidelines do you have? Well, first of all, there is no perfect. I mean relationships are imperfect. Right, I love my children, I love my husband, but that doesn't mean that it's always perfect. So let's forget perfect, and then let's also talk about different stages of life. Let's also talk about different stages of life, so it's not just what's perfect for them, but what's perfect for you and what's perfect at the moment in their lives. Very good advice.

Speaker 1: 37:43

Yes, I want to talk about coming home for short visits. So very often it's around holidays. Well, holidays are fraught with expectations. One of the ways we relate is by recalling old times, and at first it's wonderful and your kids will come back and they'll begin teasing each other like they used to, and then suddenly that teasing is no longer appropriate and they feel put upon the baby, for example. You know, the baby may now be very successful or very not successful, but either way, and whatever success means, but either way, they don't want to be frozen in that time.

Speaker 1: 38:22

So when your kids come home, on the one hand they're guests, On the other hand they're residents. This is their home, and so it's a confusing role, and we also do. We treat them as guests. No, many of us expect help and we can ask for it. Can you set the table? You know that sort of thing.

Speaker 1: 38:43

So for coming home for short terms is very different than coming home for long periods, where you really need to negotiate all the small details of living. And what about when we visit them? How do we negotiate that and not be that overbearing, mother Right? There are many ways, but one thing I can say that's helpful is the rule my rules, my house, your rules, your house. But even in that they may throw their dirty laundry on the floor. You don't have to do that. Even in that you know they may throw their dirty laundry on the floor, you don't have to do that. You can do what you want with your dirty laundry, in the sense of just putting it in your suitcase or whatever you do.

Speaker 1: 39:22

So I was having dinner last night with a friend and this actually came up, and their daughter lives in a different town and he said she's just a terrible housekeeper. I go and I just clean the house from top to bottom. And when she picked me up at the airport, the car was just packed with junk and I said I have time to get the car washed. If I came into my kid's house and started cleaning because they know I need everything cleaned too I think they would be upset. I'm not sure I would do that? Well, I want to say it A depends on the relationship, but it also depends on stage of life. And in Dope, I want to say it A depends on the relationship, but it also depends on stage of life. And in Don't Bind your Time. I talk about that.

Speaker 1: 39:59

When I was young, when I was first married, my mother-in-law would feel my freezer and I was deeply insulted this was before the women's movement and I was like you don't think I could take care of your son, the prince, I might say Right. Then, many years later, well, law had changed. I was in graduate school, I had three kids, I was working. Also, the society has changed. It was no longer the expectation that the way I take care of my husband was by making brownies for him, right, and then she would feel my freezer and she didn't change her behavior at all. What changed was me and the society. And I was like thank you so much, thank you so much, you know.

Speaker 1: 40:44

So, understanding the timing of it all and also asking I mean, if you want to come in my house and clean, you are welcome. I mean, I really feel about that. I've gone to Ellen's house and cleaned and my house and clean, you are welcome. I mean I nearly fail about. I've gone to Ellen's house and clean and my house is clean, by the way, but that just I mean it does sort of well. No, no, no, no.

Speaker 1: 41:01

But when you were in your big house, I cleaned the kids staff. I don't like clutter and I love to clean. I know, and I grew and my daughter actually went, wrote a um essay about me cleaning the bathroom. It didn't bother me at all, but I was the sort of mother. That's the kid's bathroom. You can do what you want with it. We'll clean the tub and the toilet once or twice a month, but otherwise you can do whatever you want with all your stuff in there. And it would be actually nicer. When Denise came, they even appreciated it. No, they did, it was great, yeah.

Speaker 1: 41:35

What I think this points out is they're both very good lessons in mothering. One lesson is to clean. I wish I had been able to teach my children that it's a wonderful thing to be organized. Thank God my sister could teach them that, because I couldn't. But the other is the idea this is your nest and you are responsible for it in any way you want. They're both different ways of parenting and they're very good ways both of them, and we all know that no matter which one you use, the kids may turn out differently. I mean, they're going to do what they want to do. You know they're like here's the best I can offer, now go figure it out for yourself, and they do. In either case, there's not a real danger. I mean, we can catastrophize that they're going to die in some great bacterial infection or whatever, but most of us don't because we left a ring around the top. So, really thinking about, do these things matter in the great scheme of lives? But, by the way, denise, please come tomorrow. Yeah, you have a closet, I love closets.

Speaker 1: 42:45

Okay, this is something that resonated with me in your book, a story that you shared, and I want to tell our listeners. The book is so wonderful and she shares lots of stories that I think all of you will resonate with and say, oh my gosh, this is me. And then she helps you understand typically and correct me if I'm wrong it's about our behavior, changing our behavior, because we can't change theirs. Well, it's changing our behavior. It's working to know the environment, to really understand how things are changing, and you do that, could do it by reading. You could do it by observing, you can do it by talking with people, and the way you know yourself is, in part, by playing audience to your performance in life. In other words, notice what things were on your kids.

Speaker 1: 43:34

Sometimes we need a trusted advisor, like maybe one of you, you know. You'd say, I had this interaction with my child that just didn't go well. And you can ask a trusted friend. Sometimes it's your spouse, sometimes it's your significant other and sometimes it's not. It's a friend who can dispassionately help you see your behavior. And then, finally, this idea of dealing with what you've got instead of fantasizing that you're dealing with Einstein and President Dix-O.

Speaker 1: 44:04

So this story was your adult child moves into a new place yeah, and you can't wait to see it. And in your story, when the mom arrived and she was an interior designer, the first thing she said and she didn't designer, the first thing she said and she didn't mean it by anything she said the living room's a bit small. The child went into. Can you say that about blah, blah, blah, blah, blah? I'm going to tell you a story. My daughter rented a place, her first home, together with her fiance, and it was lovely. I loved the way it was separate. I loved everything about it, it was wonderful. But it had one of those sinks the older sinks that had a lip. You know, nowadays you can take your crumbs and put it right in. So I was washing dishes and I said, oh, this is one of the older sinks I love. Now they make them. That you can.

Speaker 1: 44:50

She got so upset that I was insulting her kitchen, and it was just a statement. So so upset that I was insulting her kitchen and it was just a statement. So do I never say anything? Do I bite my tongue? What's the situation For a mother who just said oh, your living room's a little small? Well, first of all, we have to be sure that we would say that to a friend too. I would have said that to a friend. She would, denise would Absolutely Okay. And then the other thing is, when she does get upset, you can make a joke out of it. Okay, that's one option. Another was to say oh, honey, I love this place. So I think there were just many ways to handle it and say honey, I really did not mean to hurt your feelings.

Speaker 1: 45:30

Well, and in your situation, the mother spoke and the daughter said why do you always voice your opinion Right. And the mother said I see the situation, I verbalize it. And they both started laughing because they realized that this mother, just that was what she did and she did it with everyone. And the daughter had at that moment the insight that oh yeah, my mother does that and it doesn't matter. And it became a joke between them and it was like a signal this is not important, I'm just talking Verbal. I say it right. I'm either talking to my, I just think I'm talking to myself.

Speaker 1: 46:07

We just often have many more options of how we say things. You know, we have Shula, we have avoidance, we have do it later, we have talk about it now different options that we can use and we always forget that we have so many options. And the nice thing about your old children is you have been arguing with these kids from day one. Right, should I put on the right shoe or the left shoe? Eat your peas, whatever. You're able to develop a relationship because of that Over the years, you know you will survive.

Speaker 1: 46:40

What makes it tricky with in-law children is that you haven't had years of arguing and making up. Do you agree that you need to bite your tongue more with the in-law children. I think you need to be aware of how every family has its own culture and that what happens in one family may be viewed as, and that what happens in one family may be viewed as a no-no in another. For example, in some families the family always assumed that the whole extended family would get together at Christmas or go on a vacation together. In other families that's not true. In some families you walk in and you hug everyone. In other families you don't. But in a situation where you walk in and you hug everyone In other families, you don't.

Speaker 1: 47:17

But in a situation where you have an issue with your son-in-law or daughter-in-law, would you say it's better to bite your tongue with them and talk to your own child about it, or do you still think irritation enables intimacy? I think intimacy and irritation go hand in hand and you think about it and you think about how should I say it, what should I say it? Hand in hand and you think about it and you think about how should I say it, what should I say it? I have a description in Don't Bite your Tongue of how my mother-in-law confronted it with me. She just asked me outright Ruth, I don't think our relationship is as close as I'd like it to be. How could I change? And I was so impressed with her courage to ask me that I answered. What did you say? I said well, I have many talents and housekeeping is not one of my talents and I don't enjoy being criticized about it. And she never criticized me again. That's wonderful. So I mean, that was just. I just was stunned by her coverage.

Speaker 1: 48:14

So, before we close, ruth, is there anything that we haven't asked, that you want to tell us about and that we can tell our listeners? Well, I'd like to read the last sentence of the book. Okay, because to me it's really the gold of relationships. All human relationships are ambivalent. The only complete relations are those in which hostility can be expressed and the relationship maintained. It's beautiful, and I think if you think of your best friend from first grade, if you think of your significant others, that's probably true, you know. So that's what our goal is. Our goal is not sugar and spice and everything nice. That's a fantasy.

Speaker 1: 48:58

Before we close although you kind of did this, but I don't want to leave it out you always ask our guests to tell us two things. You want to leave with our listeners. What would those two pieces of advice be for our listeners? Okay, I actually would say that we have many more tools than we know we have. So I want you to reframe, put things in the positive. So if you are always, or even sometime, thinking of the worst, try to put it in the positive, because most things have a good side to it. I would also advise you to think good thoughts, not bad. In other words, interpret things in a good way.

Speaker 1: 49:38

For example, let's say you're at the house and your child clears the coffee cup. They may be wanting to run the dishwasher, not be trying to kick you out of the house. So don't always put a bad spin on things. Just bring all the wonderful things you've learned in life to this relationship. Such great advice, terrific, really great advice. Just bring all the wonderful things you've learned in life to this relationship. Such great advice, terrific, really great advice, and I'm going to take the piece that I'm going to take.

Speaker 1: 50:02

That you didn't say is work with what you have. Oh, yes, that is so important I love that metaphor that it's a recipe made out of what's already in the refrigerator. Right, our favorite things in the cabinet, and we've got to work with that Right? Well, in many respects. I hope that some of the adult children listen to this podcast because it sums up our role and their role in some ways, realizing that they have to deal with what we have. Oh true, I love it when adult children come to my talks, because we all hear someone else's children better than our own Absolutely, and they hear someone else's mother better than their own. Yes, it's terrific.

Speaker 1: 50:43

So, Ruth, thank you so much for joining us today. This was terrific. We loved it. I enjoyed it too. I learned so much. Thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 50:51

Great, and I've got to figure out. We can't change the name of our podcast. We so much Great, and I've got to figure out. We can't change the name of our podcast. We just have to realize that you don't have to bite your tongue. You just have to work with what you have. Yes, and maybe you need to chew on it a little. Yeah, chew on it, perfect, all right. Thank you so much. So that's a wrap.

Speaker 1: 51:10

What an insightful woman. Thank you so much, ruth, though Ellen and I talked a bit. Should we change the name of our podcast? I think not. What Ruth is really saying is yes, we should bite our tongues Initially, that is, but think through things, change our approaches and maybe try again when the time is right. I agree with her it's not always a good idea to avoid important subjects. Remember, as she says, and I certainly agree, silence does not build intimacy. Thanks to all of you for listening. Please check out our website, follow us on your favorite podcast platforms and follow us on all our social media platforms. We really, really appreciate it. A huge thank you to Connie Gord-Fisher, our audio engineer. And remember, there are many cases you may need to bite your tongue, at least for a while.