Bite Your Tongue: The Podcast
Did you ever expect being the parent of an adult child would be so difficult? Introducing "Bite Your Tongue," a look at exploring that next chapter in parenting: building healthy relationships with adult children. From money and finance to relationships and sibling rivalry, we cover it all. Even when to bite your tongue! Join your hosts Denise Gorant and Kirsten Heckendorf as they bring together experts, parents and even young adults to discuss this next phase of parenting. We will chat, have some fun and learn about ourselves and our kids along the way! RSSVERIFY
Bite Your Tongue: The Podcast
Empathy and Boundaries: A New Approach to Parenting Adult Children
Unlock the secrets to fostering resilient and independent adult children with Dr. Charles Fay, co-founder and CEO of Love and Logic. We promise you'll gain actionable insights into shifting your parental role from caretaker to supportive guide, helping your children thrive as self-reliant individuals. Dr. Fay uncovers the pitfalls of parental guilt and codependency, offering practical strategies to empower your adult children to take charge of their own lives.
Ever wondered how to offer advice without taking over? Dr. Fay enlightens us on presenting choices without overwhelming, allowing your children to make informed decisions and grow from their mistakes. We explore the importance of effective communication, the power of empathy, and why sometimes saying less can mean more. Through engaging role-plays and real-life examples, discover the fine line between helping and enabling, ensuring your children develop the critical thinking and resilience necessary for adulthood.
Finally, learn how to set boundaries that foster mutual respect and independence. Dr. Fay shares his personal experiences and wisdom from his upcoming book on Raising Mentally Strong Kids. This episode is packed with profound advice on maintaining a balanced household where both parents and adult children can flourish. Join us for a thought-provoking journey into the heart of parenting adult children with love and logic.
A big thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer, for making this epi
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Hey everyone, welcome to another great episode rewind with Bite your Tongue the podcast. This is truly one episode everyone should listen to again. We welcome Dr Charles Fay of the legendary Love Logic approach to parenting. In the past their techniques were more appropriate for younger children, but today they're sharing some of their best strategies for building healthy relationships with our adult kids. We do a lot of role playing in this episode, so you'll hear the right words and the right tone to take when bringing up important issues with your adult kids. Also, one of my favorite lines from Dr Fay that I think about all the time is you can never consistently work harder on someone else's life than they are willing to do themselves. Meaning let go, folks. They're adults now. We hope you'll listen, so let's get started.
Speaker 2:Let's get something on the table right now. Our adult kids are responsible for their own lives. They're responsible for their own happiness. They're responsible for their own emotions. If we play the game in our hearts of blaming ourselves or allowing them to do that, we're allowing all of that to actually interfere with their ability to grow, because our guilt will come out in ways that cause enabling codependent behavior.
Speaker 1:Hello everyone. Welcome to Bite your Tongue the podcast. I'm Denise.
Speaker 3:And I'm Kirsten, and we hope you will join us as we explore the ins and outs of building healthy relationships with our adult children Together we'll speak with experts, share heartfelt stories and get timely advice addressing topics that matter most to you. Get ready to dive deep and learn, to build and nurture deep connections with our adult children and, of course, when, to bite our tongues. So let's get started.
Speaker 1:Hello everyone, this is Denise. Welcome to another episode of Bite your Tongue, the podcast. It's late February, folks, and pretty cold in Denver. I don't know about you, but I am certainly ready for winter to end, so maybe this episode will warm us all up just a bit. We're very excited about today's guest and in a second, kirsten is going to tell you all about him. Before we get to that, I have to say two very quick things. The first is to thank all of you for listening. It means so much to us to know that you're here with us, learning and exploring all these interesting topics. We appreciate you so much. The second is we're using our new microphones today, the ones we were able to purchase because so many of you supported our podcast by buying us a virtual cup of coffee. It's been quite a struggle to get this sound perfect, so we hope we're moving in the right direction. So, kirsten, I've babbled on long enough. I know you're particularly excited about today's guest, so take it away, thank you.
Speaker 3:Denise. I'm a huge Love Logic fan. I have been for many, many years. It was founded by Jim Fay, and his son, charles, has taken it over. Basically, they created a trusted approach to parenting, one that makes sense, it's easy to digest as parents, with real techniques that you can put into play immediately. So you can imagine I pretty much fell off my chair when Denise told me that we were going to be interviewing Charles Fay.
Speaker 1:Kirsten. I was excited about landing him too, because I too heard a lot about Charles Fay. I know he's internationally known, but I wonder if it's more in Colorado, because he's a Colorado native, I think, three generation Colorado native. I think three generation Colorado native I was surprised to hear that, yeah, but I think it has a little bit of a more personal touch for you too.
Speaker 3:Yeah, we've taken a few classes. We took the first toddler class and then, because I'm a slow learner, we took a refresher course when I think we had my third kid. Then we gathered a group of our friends who also had teenage kids and we put our own group together for a teenage class, which was amazing.
Speaker 1:What I'm really proud of is that you took these classes. Going to something like this and improving our techniques with our different children gives us a step up. We should get going. So it's my privilege today to introduce Dr Charles Fay, a co-founder and CEO of Love& Logic. He himself is a parent, an internationally recognized author, consultant and public speaker. Millions of educators, health professionals and parents worldwide have benefited from these techniques, and now that they're moving into the world of young adults, we're going to benefit too. So welcome, dr Fay. Why don't you start by telling us a little bit more about yourself? And now that they're moving into the world of young adults, we're going to benefit too. So welcome, dr Faye. Why don't you start by telling us a little bit more about yourself and tell us about the new book coming our way?
Speaker 2:Thank you so much. I feel so thankful to be with you to talk about Love and Logic, because it's been a passion of ours for many decades. I am a dad. I need you to know, everybody know I have a son who's 41, who's almost 30, and one who came along as an incredible surprise blessing and he is almost 17. We've got the adult kids, we've got the teenagers and of course, they were all newborns and toddlers. At one point in time I was raised with love and logic all newborns and toddlers. At one point in time, I was raised with love and logic.
Speaker 2:1970s two men, dr Foster Klein and my father, jim Fay, started developing the approach. The rest is really history. We've been going strong at it all those years. My dad is 90 and I still just enjoy him so much and enjoyed my mom until she passed away. So that's really what we're so much about is how can we have those relationships where they're based on love and respect and helping our kids grow and be strong, thoughtful, independent people?
Speaker 2:I think that early on there were probably some pretty impactful things that my parents did that really got me thinking wow, I ought to listen very carefully to them, and I remember one time not doing my chores and they didn't yell at me or they didn't guilt me, it's just it was time to go to T-ball and I was already at my baseball glove and my mom said oh Charlie, this is so sad, you didn't do your chores, I did them for you.
Speaker 2:But that burned up all my driving time and she didn't take me and I remember trying to be mad at her, but she was so nice about it that it created a bit of psychological conflict and really the listeners I want everybody to come in close here. This is about loving our kids in ways where we can hold them accountable, but they really have to own it. They have to look inside and say to themselves you know, honestly, my parents were very kind about it. I'm still irritated about it, but it was my decision that got me in trouble. It was my behavior that created this problem for me, and that's when change happens.
Speaker 1:And tell us about the book, because now you're moving into a little bit with young adults, which is what our listeners are most interested in. We also have to know if we didn't use love and logic raising our children and now they're young adults we want to certainly address, can we backpedal into it? But first tell us a little bit about the book and why you decided to move to the area of young adults.
Speaker 2:I am a psychologist and I started working with kids. I started seeing that the application for adults is so powerful. In fact, love and Logic is really about relationship. It's how we can have really good boundaries with people, how we can love them in ways where we unleash them to reach their potential and we're not going to fight with them all about all the time. That's the sadness in so many adult relationships is there's so many power struggles and so many hard feelings. Here's the good news Today you can decide to stop. Today you can decide to realize that nobody wins a power struggle and that there are some really powerful ways of influencing people so that the odds go way up that they'll make great decisions. That's what we really want to focus on, I think, is influence rather than control.
Speaker 1:Can you give us an example of a situation financial independence. So your kid is 25, can't quite get his or her act together, needs money. You don't want them to be homeless. What's our approach?
Speaker 2:First thing is to ask what do they need in the long run? Through this lens is to ask what do they need in the long run? Through this lens, I'm thinking what is going to help them develop skills and self-respect? What's going to do that in the long run, knowing that, regardless of what I do in the short term, they might be a little upset with me. In fact, they might be pretty upset with me if I do the right thing.
Speaker 2:A young adult comes to me and says I owe $17,000 on my truck and you're thinking, yeah, and it's okay to do that. By the way, that's a good skill from time to time to look at your kids and go. I don't know how to respond to that. I'm going to have to give that some thought. One thing I know for sure is I love you. So let's talk in a little while when I'm able to get my wits about me and I can handle this really well, and that's just called respect and being real. So don't feel like you have to have all the answers in the short term. Nobody does, I don't, okay. But let's say you get back together the kid, and the first step is empathy. I'm going to give you five steps.
Speaker 2:Right now we're going to get really practical friends and you're going to use these five steps over and over again with your adult kids, your young kids, your employees, your boss who knows?
Speaker 1:Does it work with spouses?
Speaker 2:too. Does anything work yeah?
Speaker 3:Yeah, okay, yeah, it's a little more delicate, I'd say.
Speaker 2:But it's such a great question because this is not about psychological manipulation, this is not about playing tricks on people. It's about a sincere relationship where we are empowering them. See, the great leaders, great parents, great spouses are always thinking how can I build this other person up so they don't need me, but they want to hang out with me. That's a blessing. So, anyway, empathy first. So, oh man, $17,000. Tell me about that, son. Well, you know, they said they're going to take it if I don't come up with them. I can't imagine how hard that must be.
Speaker 2:And so you're doing your best to demonstrate that you really care, because we know that people are more likely to listen to our ideas if they know that we truly care about them. You're holding back. I'll put it that way. You're saying I got to connect with this kid, this young adult or this older adult before I share any information. Okay, so lots of empathy. And then you're ready to move on to step two. When they're kind of looking at you like, is that all you got? Then ask this question. This is step two. What do you think?
Speaker 1:you're going to do. I love that. What do you think you're going to do?
Speaker 2:when you ask that because all of a sudden, this person is starting to process oh, this is my thing. See, what we're really doing here is handing the problem back in a loving way, but we're also sending a non-verbal message that is so powerful and encouraging, and the message is I believe in you like you can do it.
Speaker 1:You can do it kind of thing You're capable.
Speaker 3:Yeah right, it's huge, empowering them to make their own better decision.
Speaker 2:Love and logic is so big.
Speaker 2:High expectation messages to our kids, to our adult kids, to everybody. We know You're capable. Okay, what do you think you're going to do? And then they're going to look at you and probably say I don't know, I, what do you think you're going to do? And then they're going to look at you and probably say I don't know, I don't know. That's why I'm asking you. They usually don't. They're not impressed when you ask that question a lot of times, but it's still the right thing to do.
Speaker 2:So the third step and I'm going to try to be a good teacher First step empathy. Second step what do you think you're going to do? Third step is would you like to hear what some people decide to do or what some other people might decide to do and use that language so it's less threatening Instead of saying here's what you should do, or do you want to hear what you should do? No, that's, hey. Would you like to hear some thoughts about what some people decide to do?
Speaker 2:And a lot of times for people, you'll what, you know what, and, and I like to stop here, especially with adults, and say listen. The most important thing for me is that I care about you and I don't want to be bossy, I don't want to stick my nose into stuff that isn't my business, but because I love you, I I think I have some ideas that might be helpful. Do you really want to hear them? Because I need you to tell me if you don't want to hear them and if the adult says you know, no, I got this, I'm good. I really don't want to hear what you have to say. Respect that.
Speaker 1:And you've done your job. They're leaving with the $17,000 debt that you're not taking any part of. Thank you so much.
Speaker 2:That is such a great point. I mean, you've done your job. Your job is to hand the problem back and to show you a level. Your job is not to solve a problem.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 2:And really, I think you can say to yourself I'm off the hook now I offered. Most of the time, though, people will change their minds because they're kind of desperate, or they'll say, no, no, I really do want to hear. And then you can say, great, and so I just have maybe two or three ideas. And again, let's be clear that I'm not here to tell you what to do. Okay, so you'd like to hear them. So, some people.
Speaker 2:This is step four. You give them a menu of options and don't try to be brilliant with it. They don't have to be fantastic or shattering ideas. People, the bank and see if there's any other arrangements that can be made. What are your thoughts? How do you think that might work for you? Well, I already tried that. They don't even care. All they want is their money. Oh, that's hard. A little more empathy. Another thought I have are you still interested? See, I'm always checking that. That's important friends or other people they know who might be willing to help them out. Notice, this isn't a great idea by the way I just broke away from the conversation with the kid.
Speaker 2:Notice, this isn't a great idea. See, the beauty of not having great ideas to share is it forces the other person to be smarter. Sometimes we have such great ideas that the other person doesn't have to think. See, love and logic. People are more than willing to not be very bright if it'll help other people be a lot brighter.
Speaker 1:I've never thought about that. It's an interesting idea. That's hard to do because you're sitting there saying sell the thing.
Speaker 2:thing I mean, you know exactly what needs to happen, right. And as a parent, you're thinking, okay, here's what, here's the fantasy of what you want to say, which isn't the right thing. Let's be clear. Don't try this at home, okay, but but the fantasy, you know what, what's in your heart, which is actually the right answer, but? But the wrong tactic is oh, for Pete's sake, why did you buy the thing in the first place and then you put the bigger rims on it and you got the stereo? I mean, I did not raise you to think that money grows on trees. Are you listening to?
Speaker 1:me and 95% of us I would say no, 100% of us have all said that at one time in our lives, and if we haven't, I'm shocked.
Speaker 2:I often say that human beings have a part of the brain called the lecture lobe and it remains dormant until we become parents. And then it just activates and it's got all the cliches for crying out loud. How many times do I have to tell you you don't know the sacrifices we've made, You're going to put your eye out, that kind of stuff. We can laugh about it and if you mess up, it's okay. I mean, let's get something on the table right now. Our adult kids are responsible for their own lives. They're responsible for their own happiness. They're responsible for their own emotions. If we play the game in our hearts of blaming ourselves or allowing them to do that, we're allowing all of that to actually interfere with their ability to grow, because our guilt will come out in ways that cause enabling codependent behavior. So we really have to be careful about remembering yeah, we did the best we could. Now they are responsible for their lives.
Speaker 1:What age do you say that? We've talked to a lot of people where they say this whole idea of sometimes it's not till 26. It used to be 18. You were an adult. Nowadays it's been extended. What do you think about that? And I also then want to go back to make sure we got all five and review those. I want to go back to that. But when you say they're an adult, they have to take care of themselves.
Speaker 2:When yeah Well, let's think about it a different way, and then I'll answer your question.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:We could never. Okay, I'm going to say this loud and clear we can never consistently work harder on somebody else's life than they are.
Speaker 1:We can never consistently work harder on somebody else's life than they are. We can never consistently work harder on somebody else's life than they are, and as parents, we did a lot of that, right yeah.
Speaker 2:And so now notice the language. Sometimes we do work harder on other people's lives because it's the right thing to do. They're in a crisis situation. They can't pull themselves out. We just, in our heart, know we need to be helicopters in this situation. If that's done occasionally, from time to time, when it's really needed, that's called being a kind, humane, good person. When we do it consistently, it's called sabotaging that other person's life because they'll become dependent on it. That other person's life because they'll become dependent on it. So this paradigm here of not working harder on a consistent basis informs everything we do.
Speaker 2:Let's answer the question when should we start backing away? We should start as soon as they are about seven years old, the oldest, where we start backing away, ideally speaking, allowing them to own stuff, and we step back and we hope and pray. They blow it every day and when they do, we say to ourselves oh, thank goodness, because of course I'm the kind of parent that doesn't allow mistakes that are life and death. We hope and pray they make plenty of poor decisions about the small stuff so that as they're growing, they develop a good understanding of cause and effect about the bigger stuff. So now let's just say that I'm a parent, I realize I've owned my kids' lives too much and now they're not as mature as they should be. And let's say, this kid is now an adult. Okay, realistically, I may have to be a little bit more involved, I may have to do more guidance, but I am going to implement an action plan where, every single day, I am going to hand them progressively more responsibility over their own life.
Speaker 2:So it's difficult to answer the question. Ideally, by the time they're 16 years of age, they ought to be pretty much running their own life. Now we know that the frontal cortex does not fully develop until later. We need to keep our hands on the steering wheel and be ready to go. No, you know that's okay. You know they need plenty of supervision, they need us to be aware, but as much as possible they ought to think that we aren't Okay. But let's say, let's say I have a 27 year old kid and they're pretty irresponsible. And I look back I think, yeah, I made some mistakes, I did too much. Hey, I'm going to put together a plan. What are the specific things that this young person can start doing and taking responsibility for and what are some of the mistakes that I hope they make right now.
Speaker 1:Because now the mistakes are much bigger.
Speaker 2:The consequences are bigger, they matter more than when they were seven.
Speaker 2:They matter more, but they still need to make them. Right Now, when we think about mistakes, we think, oh, what a horrible thing. High-functioning people tend to think of mistakes as oh no, it would be horrible if my kids made mistakes. No, every single great entrepreneur. I just watched a documentary on Honda, the guy who developed the car company man. That guy blew it like crazy. I mean, he made a lot of mistakes. All great people make a lot of mistakes. In fact, the greater people, the more. The people who really shape this world probably made a lot more mistakes than the rest of us. The beauty of a mistake is when you make it and then you have to own it and then you get on the other side of that mistake as a result of you owning it and working through it. How do you feel about yourself?
Speaker 1:Much better.
Speaker 2:I want all kids to go out in the world and think you know, if I'm going to live free, if I'm going to truly be free and I'm truly going to reach my potential, I'm going to make some mistakes. I'm going to have to. Of course, I want to be pretty smart about the ones I make right. But I know, though, because of history, that when I make mistakes, I can handle it, can grow from the hardship. A few things I can think of that are more important for all of our kids and our young adult kids, and to have that sense of security of knowing that, yeah, I'm going to mess up and I can handle it and I'm going to grow.
Speaker 3:I think that that's one of the most important things that I have taken away from Love Logic. What has been interesting to me is now that my kids are adults and for the most part they handle everything fine. But there are those moments and it is so much more painful at least from what I remember so much more painful now watching them as adults make those decisions and struggle. When they were kids, my husband and I were high-fiving and super excited that they'd screwed something up or failed at something. Now, not so much. Now it's anxiety causing. What is that about?
Speaker 1:I think that's absolutely right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you're spot on with that. I could say, having adult kids myself and then one who's 17, who's getting really, really close, okay, yeah, you feel like, oh, my goodness, now the stakes are higher or whatever, and it can just be so hard. And it's so interesting because, from a psychological standpoint, when our kids become older teenagers and adults, psychologically speaking, the textbooks would say, okay, we should be backing away, okay, we should be allowing them to have autonomy, independence, really backing away and saying to ourselves that's what they need developmentally. But because of our own fear in our hearts, we tend to do the opposite. And then, talking about adult children sparks fly.
Speaker 1:I was going to ask you about that, because now they're saying 25% of adult kids are estranged from their parents.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's an absolute tragedy. So I'm going to say some things that are really hard to do, and if you talk to my wife, she'll tell you he's probably not that good at doing that the stuff he talks about consistently. So, you know, let's just get that out too. I want us to be gentle with ourselves and I don't want anybody watching this thinking, oh, I made so many mistakes, I'm not capable. Be gentle with ourselves and I don't want anybody watching this thinking, oh, I made so many mistakes, I'm not capable. Oh, you're capable and you're going to make a lot of mistakes, and that's okay. You don't have to be perfect.
Speaker 2:The tough things that we all know most of us already know. I'll just go on down a list of things that are tough to really put into action. I think number one is the only person that I can control is myself. Duh, we know that, but it's so hard to remember it. The only person that I should control is myself. The world is not changed through opinion. It's changed through example, through opinion, it's changed through example. The beauty of all of this is that when we can work towards relationship, then our influence goes up.
Speaker 1:Oh, you mean building the relationship with the person, your influence. Okay, okay, lots of deposits.
Speaker 2:Okay, and so the whole question is who do we really want to follow? See, I'm taking a big chapter out of the leadership book right now. Hey, who do we really want to follow? Somebody that we love and we respect. It's not somebody who is constantly chasing us around telling us you should do this, don't do that, why did you do that, how come you did that? Or bailing us out of all of our problems. It's somebody that we look at and we say that person has a really healthy life and that person really cares about me. They see the best in me. And then when we run into somebody like that, we tend to internalize their values subconsciously. We do it automatically. I'd like all the listeners to just pause. Let's take a deep breath and think about who had the biggest influence on us. May have been a teacher, parent, coach, etc. But they were probably very loving but strong at the same time, and they had their act together.
Speaker 2:In terms of your view of it, they led an honorable life, and did they tell you to adopt their values, or did you just do it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, you're right, you're absolutely right we've got to set them free.
Speaker 2:If we can set them free and we can say I love you and if you want any ideas, if you'd like to share your heart with me, I'm more than happy to share some ideas with you. They may be good ones, they may not be good ones I'll let you be the judge of that. But I'm here for you, I care about you and see there's great risk in setting our kids free, our adult kids free Great risk, maybe? The question all of us have to entertain is where is the risk higher? Is the risk higher in setting them free, still being involved, but being a consultant, rather than a drill sergeant who tells them what to do, or a rescuer helicopter that always bails them out, but setting them free by being a consultant Is there greater risk there? Is there more risk when I try to direct the course of their life and end up having major power struggles with them? Where's the greater risk?
Speaker 3:Then they're only blaming you. They don't have to look inward, they don't have to figure anything out for themselves. So certainly the greater risk is in not setting them free.
Speaker 2:That's what I think, but you know I'm going to let the listeners decide about that, because I really want to be a good model. I love the logic we throw out what we believe. I have so much respect for people when they share what they truly believe.
Speaker 1:Everything you're saying makes so much sense. I think that the world has changed so much that there's so much pressure on parents of adult children to be overconnected with their adult kids. Does that make sense?
Speaker 2:Yeah, it makes so much sense from what I'm seeing with lots of parents and my own experiences.
Speaker 2:And, yeah, it does feel like the stakes are high and a lot of times I see a dynamic happen and I've had it in my own life where we do a lot of things let's say, we do a lot of things that help our kids be independent and then something terrible happens, terrible. Okay, they become independent and then we're like, oh, they don't need me anymore, and then it's really easy for us to throw up a mess somewhere here and there, so that there's some interaction going on and, the truth be told, it's like I want to go for quality relationship rather than constant connection over hassles and problems, right, and so, yeah, one of the risks, so to speak, is that when we raise really competent kids, we might not hear from them quite as much as maybe some of the parents who raise kids who can't fight themselves out of a wet paper bag, to be honest. But we don't want that. We want what's good for them. That's the gift of love. The gift of love is setting people free.
Speaker 1:You've said that so many times and that's what was in my head when I said that the gift of love is setting people free.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and setting people free and to live their life, even if it doesn't turn out that great.
Speaker 1:That's really hard for a parent to watch that happen.
Speaker 2:I just said that, and now I'm going to have to try to live with that in my own life.
Speaker 1:You know I'm going to have to apply that because I said it.
Speaker 2:But it's really important and I will mention my book. It's Raising Mentally Strong Kids. It'll be out in March. Co-authored it with Dr Daniel Amen. He's a neuroscientist, a brain health expert. Be available through Tyndale Publishers. But you know, my passion is really about mental strength, because when people are mentally strong, they're able to love other people well, because they're not constantly insecure or constantly trying to control other people when they don't need to. They're secure enough to be able to trust other people's competency and to put up boundaries, to say hey, I'm more than happy to spend time with you when I feel like I'm being respected, or I'm happy to have you live with us to get your feet back on the ground, as long as I feel like we're getting along really nicely and I have to do less housework. Because I want you to have self-respect, I want you to know that you don't need a rescue mission. This is just a short-term opportunity for you to get yourself back on the road, so to speak.
Speaker 1:I know one of the chapters in your book is Adult Children who Act Like Children. That's the title of the chapter, right? Okay? So without giving it all away, why, why is that the title?
Speaker 2:Well, because it happens all the time.
Speaker 1:I know, but we need examples.
Speaker 2:Well, you know, I need $17,000. Or they move home and they treat you. They act like a belligerent 13-year-old, they roll their eyes, they they're 25, they're 40 years old and they're demanding of you. They're laying around on the couch, there's beer cans on the table, they're playing video games, that kind of stuff, or they're criticizing every move you make or trying to make you feel guilty and those sorts of things. So those are a lot of the behaviors that we're talking about.
Speaker 1:So then immediately we put in to practice the five, beginning with empathy. Like, ok, so the kids laying on the couch playing video games and they've been trying, quote, unquote, trying to get a job, ok, so the empathy is it must be really hard to find work these days, even though the unemployment right now, I mean it must be really hard to find work these days, or what?
Speaker 2:Take us somewhere through that your parents. Okay, oh, I'm good with it, dad. Well, the truth of it is is I'm not.
Speaker 1:Oh, you can say that Okay.
Speaker 2:Because I'm never going to be good with seeing you not grow son.
Speaker 3:And you're taking. You're showing them that you're taking care of yourself with that statement.
Speaker 2:And take care of them because I never, ever and it's okay to say this to your adult kid I never want to feel like I am interfering with your ability to grow and be self-sufficient. Never want to feel that way. That's why we have this basic rule in the house that I'm never going to work harder in your life than you are.
Speaker 3:Wow.
Speaker 2:But the sad thing is, right now there's a couple problems. Number one I feel like I'm interfering with your ability to mature because I'm making it too easy for you to live here. And number two there's beer stains on the couch.
Speaker 1:That's a problem, and you're nice when you're saying this. You're soft-spoken. All of this comes to you completely naturally right now, right, well?
Speaker 2:right now. But if that happened in my own home, five minutes from now, it would be a lot harder for me, and that's why we practice this stuff ahead of time, and we might even get a life coach or a therapist to work with us on this. And how do we deliver it so that we can be proud of the way we handled it? Yeah, it's going to take a lot of practice, a lot of preparation, and that's okay. That's okay. And so, son, I'm more than happy to help you continue to live here, as long as I see that you're working harder on your life than I am.
Speaker 1:I am working hard. You just don't see what I'm doing when I'm not on the couch.
Speaker 2:And I'm not hard. You just don't see what.
Speaker 1:I'm doing when I'm not on the couch and I'm not done.
Speaker 2:Okay, see, that's called. Not going to get sidetracked by the arguing.
Speaker 1:Gosh that is good.
Speaker 2:So two things, son. I want to make it simple. As long as I feel like I'm not interfering with your growing, and number two, as long as your mom and I are really enjoying having you here, we can talk about what that looks like, but this should be enjoyable for us. If we are feeling stressed because you're here and we're not feeling respected or the house isn't being taken care of, then that's not fun for us. So just two things growth and that it's pleasant for us. Those are two boundaries that absolutely have to be in place, regardless of how old the kid is.
Speaker 2:If they come back and live with us. There are a lot of kids who come back and live with their parents adult kids, I should say and it goes great. It's not always horrible. I know people who said I'm so blessed because my son and his wife moved back in and they worked hard. They helped us out with the housework, they were pleasant. He was working really hard to find a job. Things got worked out. We had some rough spots, but it was really positive. It's not a horrible thing. In fact, when my mom grew up in Globeville, Colorado some of you will know where that is the.
Speaker 2:European enclave down in Denver and I think there were like five generations in the house. There just has to be really good boundaries. Those are the boundaries we set with the kid. The boundaries we set with ourselves are just important. And that is that number one. I'm going to, you know, I'm going to follow through on those boundaries I set with a kid. And number two I'm going to remember that me trying to dictate their life or control what they decide is a recipe for disaster. I only control the things that are trying to control, the things that affect me directly in terms of my well-being.
Speaker 1:You know I want to go back to your conversation with the son on the couch. I think at this point you also have to really control, because I could imagine a kid saying you've always liked Susan better than me. You always think I'm the one that's been disrespectful. You've caused this Susan better than me. You always think I'm the one that's been disrespectful. You've caused this. Then, this deep love you have for this kid, you have to separate the guilt and the love. With this logic you're putting in. It sounds like, but I could just see that well, you're the one that's caused this. I'd be doing so much better if you treated me the way you treated Sally.
Speaker 2:Let's role play, because you're right on a roll with this. Let's pretend that you're the kid and I'll do the best that I can, okay.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'm sick of you telling me this stuff. You made me like this. You gave Sally so much more than you gave me, and now I'm struggling.
Speaker 2:So tell me more about that.
Speaker 1:I want to hear more about you, you told me my whole life I was never as smart as her. I'm never going to be, as maybe he didn't do it directly, but those were the messages I got. I'm never going to be as great as Sally, so I'm not.
Speaker 2:So you feel like I don't. I didn't treat you well. That's what's causing.
Speaker 1:I do. There's no question about it. I don't feel it, I know it.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad that you shared that with me, son. I'm really thankful that you shared that with me, and some do you suppose that changes my expectations.
Speaker 1:So you do have to. You're getting rid of all the emotion and coming at it with complete logic.
Speaker 2:There's two skills at least two skills embedded in that. First of all, listening, without trying to make any sense of it. When somebody's upset, it never hurts to listen, but don't take it to heart, it's so hard.
Speaker 1:Don't listen that hard, that's hard.
Speaker 2:It's like the old saying never reason with a drunk. The kid is drunk on hurt, they're drunk on emotion. And you can listen, but you don't let your heart listen to it, because once that door gets opened, it's going to be hard for you to stick with the boundaries that you set. Okay, don't try to reason, don't try to justify yourself, because it's not like they're all of a sudden going to say wow, I'm so glad you put it that way. I was so disgruntled and entitled, but now I'm going to get my life together. They don't respond like that. It's not like a light goes off over their head and they're like thank you so much for your wisdom. So I say to myself listen, but don't let it into the heart.
Speaker 2:And then go right back to the central issue that you're trying to achieve here two boundaries going right back, because, the truth be told, human beings are really good at playing distraction. We're going to start up a side issue over something and then we go down that rabbit hole and the original issue isn't addressed. That's one of the most common dynamics known to humankind. Don't fall for it. And so, again, this is something if you're really hurting over what's going on with your adult kids. I do recommend getting with a life coach, expressing these things, practicing these skills, and not doing this until you feel like, okay, I can do this, I'm going to be confident with this and this is really a gift to my kid. Let's be blunt there may be very well be a time pretty soon in this specific scenario where the parents say there is no longer a spot for you in this home because we're not seeing you be able to live with those boundaries we set so painful. I don't want to minimize that and the pain of that.
Speaker 1:I want to make sure we go through those five things, starting with empathy. This has been so valuable I think I'm going to have to listen to this over and over again. So, anyway, go ahead. So empathy number one.
Speaker 2:Yeah, empathy number one. And we use these anytime a kid has a problem, so the kid is not getting a job. Empathy Number two what do you think you're going to do? I don't know. Number three would you like to hear some ideas? We ask permission to share ideas first. Would you like to hear some thoughts? First, would you like to hear some thoughts? And then the next step we give a menu of options.
Speaker 2:Some people decide to do such and such. How would that work for you? And the options don't have to be great ones. I know, with the $17,000 rock issue, it might be well. Some people decide to ride the bus. I mean, how would that work? And you try to be as sincere as possible. Now the fifth step work, and you try to be as sincere as possible. Now the fifth step. Oh, we've been teasing this for quite a while. Allow them to solve the problem well, or solve the problem poorly, or not solve the problem at all, because it is their problem. See step five. It's so tempting when we get to that point to say, hey, that second one we talked about is really a good one.
Speaker 1:Do that, don't decide for them If they say to you can you lend me the money?
Speaker 2:Okay, son, that's not an option.
Speaker 1:I know you have it. Why can't you lend it to me?
Speaker 2:I don't feel comfortable with it, you don't know. By the way, it's breaking away from the role play you don't owe them an explanation.
Speaker 1:Okay, got it.
Speaker 2:In fact, the nastier they are about it, the less of an explanation you owe them. Don't feel comfortable with it. Or you could always say I just feel like it would be a lot better growth experience if you could learn how to solve this problem yourself. But make it short, very few words. You want the kid to choose the course of action, or choose not to choose, which is again choosing. But see if I choose for the kid, will they learn?
Speaker 1:Well, I guess, if they take one of your options, but they're choosing one of the options, yeah, okay, got it.
Speaker 2:Now let's say I pick the option. I make the mistake of picking the option and they do it and it turns out well. That's sad too, because they have to say to themselves well, my dad or my mom told me to pick that one. I want them as much as possible and this is a takeaway. Let them own it. Let them fully own the consequences of their poor decisions, but also allow them to own the glorious consequences of their good decisions. Ownership happens when they are the ones that go out and have to do the struggle and have to ultimately decide which option is best for them.
Speaker 1:Okay, before we get to the final takeaways, I have one question, because I get this a lot from listeners the person your adult child selects as their spouse is really important, but again, it's their decision. Is there anything you say as a parent when you just well, I don't think anyone really knows it's wrong, but you really question whether this is a good decision or do you just let it roll?
Speaker 2:Here's my take on it. From time to time, if I have a really good relationship with my kids, I can go to them and say, hey, can I share something that concerns me, as long as I don't tell you what to do. I have some concerns about let's just call her Rebecca. I have some concerns about Rebecca and if the kid listens and they're open to some thoughts, you can share something and of course, it's shared out of love and love for Rebecca as well. I'm just concerned about that. She seems like she's really angry about some things and it comes out in a lot of ways and I feel bad for her and I'm concerned for you and I don't want to say too much. I don't want to be a jerk, so please tell me if I'm being a jerk with this. And, son, I just love you and I know you're going to do what's best for you, okay, and then you have to back out.
Speaker 2:Again the idea is you give the information and then you say to yourself, oh, thank goodness, I'm off the hook Now I just pray that this is going to work out well for both of them. But we got to let it go. I also believe that that is something I know, I know. I know that's something that your adult child has to live themselves. The less you get involved in trying to be a counselor or coach in their relationship or anything other than just a loving parent, I mean, stay out of it, back off and bite your tongue, right.
Speaker 1:Bite your tongue.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I love that title. This could have been a really short interview. I just say bite your tongue and then we'd be done. I know I know we're constantly asking ourselves are we truly trusting in our kids' ability to learn, even if they make poor decisions? And are we also remembering that I can't control everything that happens in life and I shouldn't? Yep, yeah, hard medicine to swallow.
Speaker 1:Kirsten, do you have any other questions? I just had to ask about the spouse thing because I probably get an email a day about that. Is there anything else you want to ask before you ask for his takeaways?
Speaker 3:My question is more on what you're seeing today. I think that the world has changed a lot. I think that sometimes the consequences of their decisions at a much younger age it can be life-ending, life-changing. All of the above. Are you seeing that play out in real time?
Speaker 2:Things are high stakes. There's a lot of things that really are high stakes. We want to keep our thinking caps on. I mean, we want to be thinking and we want to be evaluating the things that are coming our way and asking is this truly a life and death thing? Is this something where I need to break my basic rule of not getting too involved and jump in? Sometimes we do that. So please don't stop thinking just because maybe I threw some basic principles up that are true most of the time. So we need to use good common sense. We also need to remember and this is a takeaway, and so lock this in your mind, write this on your forehead or on a piece of paper would be even better we can never consistently work harder on somebody else's life than they are.
Speaker 1:Okay, say that one more time. So, dr Fay, your two takeaways.
Speaker 2:The first one is we can never consistently work harder on somebody else's life than they are, because when we work harder than they are, then they get accustomed to that and they stop working hard. And when we're no longer working hard on our own lives, we're not growing and maturing.
Speaker 1:Wow, does that apply to husbands.
Speaker 3:And emptying the dishwasher.
Speaker 2:And honey. I was going to cook dinner tonight but I thought, oh, that means there's going to be dishes and I just don't have the energy to put all those away.
Speaker 1:We need one more good one before we say goodbye.
Speaker 2:Okay. The more words I use when things are going wrong, the less effective I become.
Speaker 1:Bite your tongue.
Speaker 2:Yeah, the more words I use when things are going wrong, when there's heavy emotion going on, the more words I use, the less effective I become. I save the words for calm times. I have a little more folksy little soundbite for that, because I'm a folksy guy, you know, but mine is. If you don't want to mess, say less.
Speaker 1:If you don't want to mess, say less.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:Dr Fay. This has been such an honor. Kirsten was so excited about this and I was not as familiar. You really wrapped so much up in such a short time for us and I can't tell you how much we appreciate it.
Speaker 2:Thank you for allowing me to share my passion, and all of you listeners, thank you for taking your time. I mean time is valuable. It's something you can't get back, and so thank you for honoring me and blessing me with your time.
Speaker 3:Thank you so very much for joining us today.
Speaker 1:I want you to know that we will share your book and everything in all of our episode notes. Thank you, well, that's a wrap. I don't know about you, kirsten, but that was amazing. I'm sure it will take a lot of practice. So much of what he said was so valuable, and I also liked the idea that he suggested, if you struggle, get a coach so you can practice.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I thought that was really a great idea. There were so many things that I wanted to ask him and then he would address whatever it was that I was writing down to ask, so that was really fun for us. I think there was a lot of content there. I loved these takeaways that we can never consistently work harder on someone else's life than they are, which is huge. I say that to my kids all the time. It sounds like you're thinking of this more than they're thinking of it. So who's doing the work? And then the other one the more words I use, the more ineffective I become. So it's that idea like you're reasoning with a drunk, so to speak, and you just keep going, and going, and going, and going, thinking that the one thing you say is going to change the trajectory, and that's just never how it plays out.
Speaker 1:Kirsten, you're so right, I think. Both of those I'm going to type up and put on my bulletin board.
Speaker 3:I swear, I am.
Speaker 1:Anyway, okay, again, thank you to all our listeners. We appreciate your support. Remember you can buy us a virtual cup of coffee at biteyourtonguepodcastcom. Look for the support us button. $5 is all it takes to let us know you love the podcast and want us to continue. Thank you again to Connie Gorrent-Fisher, our audio engineer. Want us to continue. Thank you again to Connie Gorrent-Fisher, our audio engineer, and remember, just like Charles Faye said, sometimes you've got to bite your tongue.
