Bite Your Tongue: The Podcast
Did you ever expect being the parent of an adult child would be so difficult? Introducing "Bite Your Tongue," a look at exploring that next chapter in parenting: building healthy relationships with adult children. From money and finance to relationships and sibling rivalry, we cover it all. Even when to bite your tongue! Join your hosts Denise Gorant and Kirsten Heckendorf as they bring together experts, parents and even young adults to discuss this next phase of parenting. We will chat, have some fun and learn about ourselves and our kids along the way! RSSVERIFY
Bite Your Tongue: The Podcast
Bonus Rewind: Navigating Your Adult Child's Dating Journey with Rachel Greenwald
Should you be involved in your adult child's dating life? Listen and find out.
Discover the art of balancing parental involvement in your adult children's dating lives as we bring you insights from the esteemed matchmaker, Rachel Greenwald.
Our conversation takes a deep dive into the ever-evolving dating landscape, where technology and social media have turned dating into a skill that requires finesse and caution. Hear how the priorities of marriage and career are shifting among young adults, as highlighted by a compelling New York Times article.
The pandemic has left an indelible mark on dating behaviors, encouraging a shift towards meaningful connections over superficial interactions. We explore how family dynamics play a pivotal role in shaping romantic relationships and the importance of having open, constructive conversations about your child's partner choices. From the influence of family backgrounds to the art of effective communication, this episode is a treasure trove of insights for anyone navigating the complex world of modern dating.
Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
Send your ideas for episodes and guests to biteyourtonguepodcast@gmail.com.
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Hey everyone. It's Denise. This is one of our last rewinds. I think there's just one more after this, but how could we go on and not play this one again? This is from Season 3, should Parents Medal in their Adult Child's Dating Life? We talked to Rachel Greenwald, a renowned matchmaker, and she shares if, when and how to navigate this tricky issue. She shares if, when and how to navigate this tricky issue. At first I thought who would ever meddle in their children's dating life? But take a listen and see what you think.
Speaker 2:So let's get started. As young adults, I think we have to know that we can't tell them who to love. As much as we wish we could choose their partner, you have to understand that there's probably a window of time when you can indicate some kind of concern about your child's choice in a boyfriend or girlfriend, and that window of time is early on in their relationship. If you bite your tongue for a year or two while they're dating somebody and then it gets serious and suddenly you express your disapproval after they've fallen in love or they're about to get engaged, you're risking a lifetime of alienation from your child. Frankly, at that point their allegiance is going to be to their partner and they're going to tell their partner everything you said about them.
Speaker 2:And that partner will never forget it.
Speaker 1:Before we start, I just want to say, Kirsten, I'm so glad you're with me. I think we're moving along and we're finally clicking a few episodes in. Thanks so much for joining me.
Speaker 3:Thank you so much, denise. This has really been a fun experience and I'm excited to be a part of this very important conversation. And with that, it's almost Valentine's day. Hard to believe, hard to believe, all right. So we thought we would talk about dating and love lives, specifically our adult children's love lives. Should parents be talking about this? Very weird, very weird, I know. And so, because we're not so sure, we thought that we would welcome celebrity matchmaker and dating coach Rachel Greenwald today.
Speaker 1:Valentine's Day, Rachel Greenwald. I've known Rachel for a while. She's from Denver, but she's really hit it big with this matchmaking, so it should be an interesting conversation. Yeah, For me Valentine's Day. I don't know how you feel and I wonder what our listeners feel. I hate Valentine's Day. I hate Valentine's Day and I hate Mother's Day. There's so much pressure to send Valentine's cards, Tell your mother you love her. Do you guys do this? How do you? I always wonder what other people feel about these holidays.
Speaker 3:Now we're in agreement on this. We stopped celebrating Valentine's Day years ago, and when the kids were little I used to buy them chocolate, until the day that the dog got into the chocolate, and then that was the end of that as well.
Speaker 1:Oh, that's so funny. I grew up in a candy store. Family Easter, valentine's and Christmas were the biggest holidays, so it's weird for me now not to be buying chocolates and Valentine hearts, but it just seems so contrived, no to be buying chocolates and Valentine hearts, but it just seems so contrived.
Speaker 3:No, I agree, I said this to my whole family you have to love and appreciate me all year long, every day.
Speaker 1:Yeah Well, good luck with that, but you're sure you're ahead of me on that one. But you're absolutely right. All right, we need to get started here. Many parents of adult kids do worry Is my son or daughter going to meet their life partner? And I have to say, just having my daughter she's been in this relationship for 16 years but she just got married. I do feel good when my kids are in a relationship and it's someone I like, although, again, we don't really have a choice, but I feel like someone that's going to love them and hopefully care for them. I feel a little bit like they have their soulmate and that, I don't want to say, leaves me off the hook. But I am off the hook a little bit and for many young people it is getting harder and harder and harder. I think we're going to learn a lot today. I think we're going to learn about what the dating seems like for them, what she does as a matchmaker, and explore how we might get involved.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I also along those lines. I recently read an article that said that, while just over half of all American adults in the United States are single, a recent survey by the Pew Research Center found that 61% of never marrieds still hope to find a spouse one day. Which ends up to me being a lot of unhappily single people under the age of 40 and a lot of anxious boomer parents like us, I suspect.
Speaker 1:You're exactly right. Why don't you go ahead and introduce Rachel and let's get this party started?
Speaker 3:I would love to. Rachel Greenwald has clients across the United States of all ages. She's a New York Times bestselling author and relationship expert and has appeared on hundreds of television, radio and podcast shows, including the Today Show, abc Nightline, cbs Morning, npr and many others. She's been featured in publications such as the New York Times, fortune, the Harvard Business Review, the New Yorker, the Atlantic and oh, the Oprah Magazine. She was responsible for 908 marriages and counting that's pretty amazing, I know right, it's a crazy number and is the author of two dating books.
Speaker 3:Have Him at Hello, which is confessions from a thousand guys about what makes them fall in love or never call back and Find a Husband After 35, using what I learned at Harvard Business School. So welcome, rachel. Is there anything that we missed that you would like to share with our audience before we get started?
Speaker 2:No, thank you so much. I'm really excited to be here today.
Speaker 1:We're glad to have you Tell us how you got into this. This whole I mean matchmaking is something that's been around for a long time. We've all watched Fiddler on the Roof, but how did you get into this?
Speaker 2:Well, actually it was pretty accidental. It was about 22 years ago. I was pregnant with my third child and I was really just looking for flexible work from home. I did a bunch of research and eventually decided that writing a book would be really flexible and I could pick it up and put it down whenever I wanted. So I got this idea to write a book that eventually was called Find a Husband After 35, using what I learned at Harvard Business School. It was actually the publicity from the book that led to inquiries on my website from potential matchmaking clients.
Speaker 2:I didn't even know it was a business, but that's how it got started. It's funny because back then the business of matchmaking was in its infancy. There were maybe I don't know like 25 matchmakers in the US back then and now there's probably 6,000. So there has been this massive growth. I even teach a training course now for matchmakers, because there's so many getting into the business. I call it the Love MBA and it's a three-day retreat where I teach matchmakers sort of the ethics and the strategy and all the tips and techniques to help singles find love.
Speaker 1:Gosh, I had no idea. I used to watch that show on reality TV the Matchmaker, that woman with the long dark hair, do you remember? Did you ever watch that, rachel, I forget what it was even called, but every often when you want to just relax, you tune into something like that.
Speaker 2:It was Patty Stanger and the Millionaire Matchmaker.
Speaker 1:That's what it was, oh I should clarify that.
Speaker 2:that is nothing like what I do. Okay, she was built for reality TV. She's very entertaining, but the actual substance of what a quality matchmaker does is very different.
Speaker 1:Well, we're going to learn about it, right, Kirsten?
Speaker 3:Yeah, that's great, that's fun.
Speaker 1:You know the premise of our podcast Bite your Tongue. So how can parents be helpful in this without really being intrusive? It seems like something that maybe we shouldn't be involved in. Yet articles we've read. Things you've said seem like we might be a bit of a help, or a matchmaker could be a bit of a help.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's an interesting question because it really depends how you're defining help. So the key part of your question was how can parents be helpful? A lot of parents tell me that they feel like they're meddling, even if they ask a simple question like so are you dating anyone these days? So I think there are many ways that parents can be helpful in the dating arena, but there are usually two scenarios. There's adult kids who speak openly with their parents about their love lives, and then there's adult kids who hate talking about dating with their parents and want to avoid it at all costs. So the latter group I guess I'd call the avoiders. They're more challenging to help.
Speaker 2:Of course, it can be a triggering topic for adults for many reasons. So I guess the key is to figure out the unique set of reasons why your child wants to avoid the topic. You need to kind of pick a time when you know they're relatively relaxed not when they're hungry or tired or stressed about work but try to have an open dialogue with them to find out why they bristle about this topic before you can even try to help them. So you want to clarify with them that you don't want to talk about their dating life right now, but you're simply asking why it's a sore subject with you and you want to approach that conversation, like all conversations you have with your kids, with curiosity and using phrases like tell me more about that or help me understand phrases that are not judgmental. I think that there are a lot of ways that you can help. First, by understanding why the dynamics are occurring that may be concerning you, or even just that you're curious about. If they're choosing the wrong partners again and again. You know, maybe they could benefit from a great therapist to talk about their childhood issues or issues around self-esteem before they can even start to develop a healthy relationship. You can help simply having this conversation to learn if they feel like your questions imply that they've disappointed you or there's something wrong with them and you should address that first, because you can't really help if they are resistant.
Speaker 2:Remember that young adults benefit much more from your questions than your advice. So if you're trying to help them, it's not really about advising or doing. It's really just probing and asking them what they think they should do in the situation before you jump in with any advice. That applies to anything that we do as parents. Share stories about your own dating situations.
Speaker 2:Our brains are wired to retain stories, and that's part of having an open dialogue with them, so just basic open conversation can be the first helpful situation for avoiders. There's, of course, another group of adult kids who talk openly about their dating lives with you, and maybe the best way to help them is simply to offer financial assistance if you can afford it, like gifting them services for matchmaking or dating coaching may even be not just lifting a financial burden off of them, but maybe lifting an important psychological burden from them. A lot of young adults could even afford dating services, but by paying money for something that that age group fundamentally thinks should happen organically or serendipitously, it can make them feel like there's something wrong with them, which, of course, there's not. Dating is just really complicated today.
Speaker 3:Along that note of how complicated dating is today. It seems to me and my children are obviously older, but it seems to me that things have changed a lot. The meaning of what dating is has changed quite a bit, and I don't know how much of that is this remote working pandemic, the situation with their phones and other technology, instagram. You know how much of that is this remote working pandemic, the situation with their phones and other technology, instagram, social media, plus all the dating sites. It's just a lot going on. So how do you see all of this sort of affecting what's happening in the dating world today?
Speaker 2:Well, first and foremost, you're right that dating has completely changed from when all of us were the ages of our adult kids now, first of all, it's super common to have dating apps and to get to know somebody electronically before you even meet them in person, and that's just the way it is.
Speaker 2:I think that parents need to understand the pressure and the way that dating is so time consuming. Now there's a lot of gamification of dating with these apps, where people are constantly swiping and they're making quick judgments based on someone's photo or a certain line that they wrote in their profile. Some people say that dating has, and therefore dating apps have become all about who's the best comedian, because there's so much pressure to be clever in your dating texts on online. So people are, first of all, turning this into a game. They're making quick and superficial judgments about things that probably aren't even true in person if they met in real life, and then it can be very demoralizing because it takes so much time. There's a really bad epidemic of ghosting people, meaning someone that just disappears after expressing some interest. Today, more than anything else, is a learned skill, and that's something that wasn't true for us.
Speaker 1:What do you mean? A learned skill? I don't get that. I was never a great dater. Ever, praise the Lord, I met someone that understood who I was.
Speaker 2:but why is it different now than it was before, other than these dating apps, first of all, the skill that your kids have to learn is kind of like marketing, because dating is mostly online, it is not as organic and natural as it used to be before dating apps. So the skill involved is, first of all, learning that it's an entirely visual medium to begin with, and so knowing the kinds of photos that you need to select for yourself is the first skill. And the way that it's different, because people are taking two seconds to look at your photo and then swiping left or right and making all sorts of assumptions about whether they're attracted to you, whether you're their type. Maybe they'll look at your job and then make all sorts of assumptions about your job title or anything that you write in your profile. That you may think is just a casual throwaway line or you're trying to be funny, but somebody else takes the wrong way.
Speaker 2:The coaching that's involved in helping these young adults be more successful in dating revolves around helping them select photos that represent authentically who they are, but also putting their best foot forward, and professional photos, for example, is the first thing that I advise young adults. I mean not just young adults, but singles at any age. It kind of goes against the grain of what you think in your brain should be happening in finding love. You know we're all victims of romantic comedies and Hollywood versions that you just meet somebody serendipitously and love will just spark. But with this intermediary today, that is the online dating app, this digital medium, there's a whole different sequence and process that has to happen. It involves more of a marketing technique upfront, so that people want to lean in and get to know you better and hopefully meet you offline, and that's not something that we had as dinner conversation around the table when our kids were growing up. Right, they don't learn this in college or high school. This is actually a skill, in the way that learning a foreign language is a skill.
Speaker 1:This is interesting to me. We need to know what a matchmaker does. I had no idea that you would help them with online kinds of things too, because I have to say, every wedding I've gone to probably the last five years, if you ask the bride and groom, or bride and bride or whoever it might be they met online. And I remember back when I thought, oh, you met someone on the computer. That's terrible. Now it seems like the best way to meet people, so a matchmaker might help with that. Let's start with what a matchmaker does.
Speaker 2:Okay, well, so I should really start with saying that matchmakers can't always help. Let me clarify that, because it's not always the solution. Matchmakers aren't like a silver bullet for everything that could be going on with your adult child and their dating life. There could be emotional issues, maybe they're depressed or they're having some kind of self-destructive behavior, or there could even be something more subtle happening, like if they have I don't know misaligned goals. They say they want to date, but then their actions aren't consistent with that desire, so they're working too much or traveling too much. Maybe they meet someone great, but then it takes two or three weeks to schedule the next date because they've made themselves so busy and then they're unwilling to cancel their plan. So by the time they're even available to pursue someone, the initial connection is fizzled. There could be all sorts of things like that that a matchmaker can't fix. Those are maybe things that you can point out, but it's not going to solve the problem for every situation. But if an adult child is genuinely interested and committed to finding love, whether it's even just to practice dating or to have a serious relationship, then a matchmaker can help in a lot of ways. I guess a big way would be simply as a sounding board, like a thought partner, sort of an independent, objective person in their life who wants them to be happy without the biased agenda that their family has. The family says are they going to fit into our family culture? Which isn't the same as an independent observer like a matchmaker who says are they going to fit into our family culture? Which isn't the same as an independent observer. Like a matchmaker who says will this person make you happy? Matchmakers can offer advice that isn't laden with judgment or even childhood triggers.
Speaker 2:Also, I think a really important thing that I always try to insert into every matchmaker relationship I have with clients is that I try to see the gap between what someone says they want versus what they actually need to be happy. So I try to pose questions that someone thinking deeper and challenging their assumptions about what they're looking for. I'm not afraid to call out the truth. I might say that hairstyle isn't working for you. You know that's something I can say and you can't. As a parent or I can tell them. They have a habit of interrupting people. They should talk less and listen more. These are things that you can hear from an outside person, but not your parent. You know I obviously try to do it in a sensitive but helpful way so it's not triggering.
Speaker 2:But also, matchmakers get feedback from dates that the adult child goes on. Oh, I didn't know that. Yeah, absolutely. So I always call both the client and their date after they meet and I get really candid feedback to help them fine tunetune their behaviors or things they're saying that didn't land well so they can adjust it next time in the future.
Speaker 2:We never get feedback. We don't have access to feedback. We just know that somebody didn't call us back and want a second date, but we have no idea why a matchmaker can be that intermediary. But I guess what most people say is the most helpful thing, just from a process standpoint or logistics, is that a matchmaker or dating coach can just help make the process easier and less time consuming and less volatile, because there's a lot of ups and downs in this dating app process where you swipe right on somebody that you like but they don't swipe right back and that's demoralizing. Or somebody is just flat out dishonest and when you meet them in person they're nothing like what they said on their profile. The dates through a matchmaker are vetted and they're handed to you instead of making you go through all the rejections and the time consuming back and forth that may end up turning into nothing and wasting your time. Very interesting.
Speaker 3:You've had. A number of successful marriages have occurred from your matchmaking. How important is marriage to young adults today? Has there been a shift in that? There was a recent article by opinion columnist David Brooks in the New York Times who advises young adults to prioritize marriage over their careers. It received some intense pushback. Have you seen this book and do you have any thoughts about this and marriage and where our kids are today?
Speaker 2:Yeah, actually, I'm so glad you brought that up. I love David Brooks. He's one of my favorite columnists. I love him too yeah, he's great.
Speaker 2:So, if I remember correctly, his point was simply that young people aren't so much against marriage, it's just not their top priority. So they feel like their career is at the core of their life and marriage is something that would be nice to have sometime down the road. I agree with his premise. I really love that piece that he wrote that you should use your youth to prioritize romantic relationships to get some practice so that when it comes time to seek marriage and you're ready to start dating maybe the last person you're ever going to date that you have knowledge of what works for you and what doesn't, even if that time that you're going to get serious is a long time off. So again, dating and selecting a life partner is a learned skill, it's not a natural instinct, even though that doesn't sound romantic. As parents, I think it's more important to invest in dating resources for your child than it was, say, to invest in an SAT tutor when they were applying to college. Where they went to college is far less important in their overall life happiness than who they choose in a mate. We're often really bad predictors of that, not just young adults, but regular adults too.
Speaker 2:There's actually this funny phrase that we use behind closed doors as matchmakers. We say that buyers are liars. It's termed from real estate where people go into a real estate agent and they say I want this style architecture, I want to buy a house in this neighborhood, this is my budget, oh, and it has to have a pool. And the realtor runs around and shows them everything that fits exactly what their specifications are, and the home buyer just says no, no, no, no, doesn't feel right. And then, maybe a little later, the realtor says can I show you something different? Can I show you this house that I think you might like? It's a different architecture, different budget, different neighborhood and it doesn't have a pool. And the buyer walks in and says it's perfect, I love it.
Speaker 2:It's just exactly the same thing in dating, where buyers are liars. They come into my office and they tell me exactly what they want. They want a certain height, a certain hair color, a certain career description or whatever it is, and it's usually superficial or external markers. They often say I love to ski, so the person has to ski. Ultimately, those just aren't the things that end up making them happy in a long-term relationship. A matchmaker usually tries to discern the difference between what someone says they want versus what they actually need to be happy. I think that's a process that David Brooks was getting at when he said focus on dating and prioritizing relationships when you're younger, so you get that practice and you learn about yourself.
Speaker 1:That's so interesting. I have about a thousand questions going through my mind, but I'm going to start with one and get to the well, the one I want down the road is the difference between a matchmaker and a dating coach, because you seem to be using those interchangeably. But first I want to ask this. I thought of this question when you said professional photos and stuff. I guess I just feel like and again maybe I can't wrap my head around completely how times have changed. I worry I don't want to change myself too much when I'm meeting someone. I want someone to like me for who I am, not for what I created through my profile or through how. The dating coach is asking me to not interrupt. I interrupt all the time. Whoever's going to marry me better be ready for that, because that's my personality. How do I give my whole self of who I am but still work within your parameters that you're talking about? Does that?
Speaker 2:make any sense. It totally does, denise. I'm so glad you asked that because it is something that is on everyone's mind. I think the first thing you have to realize it goes back to something I said earlier about the skill of dating. Today is marketing. But I want to really clarify this because it's about sequence.
Speaker 2:Because dating has moved online, there is inherently a process of somebody looking at a photo and deciding whether or not they want to learn more about you, and so the game then becomes getting offline and meeting in person so that two people can really get to know each other. If you don't have good photos not misleading photos I want to be really clear but just good photos. Photos in outside natural light, photos where you're smiling, not where you're wearing sunglasses. Photos where you're wearing clothing that actually is flattering and not rumpled clothing or baggy clothing where somebody just doesn't even get a sense of whether you're fit and healthy or whatever it is that could be misleading about the photo. Some people, by the way, put photos with their dog covering their body. It almost looks like the dog is a human shield. There are just all sorts of psychology reasons why photos aren't working for them, just to get in person. It's not about pretending to be somebody you're not or putting up misleading photos. It's just trying to get that first meeting In the job world. If you were looking for a job, you put together a resume that is your best foot forward. It's talking about your accomplishments and trying to show off the best version of yourself just to get the interview. And then, once you're in the interview, then it becomes a question of mutual fit. So the sequence here is really important. Of course no one should change to catch a husband or catch a wife.
Speaker 2:The nuance of dating advice isn't about trickery. It's about making a great first impression so the other person sees you at their best and sees the traditionally desirable parts first, so that they develop an attraction and an emotion for you, so that then they can slowly start to see the whole person that you are and evaluate the whole package. So maybe I can give you an example you mentioned you interrupt all the time, but your husband loves you, I assume, and so he takes the interruption with all the other good parts. I'm really bossy, for example, but my husband still loves me, so he deals with it. But if I acted really bossy in our first date I don't know that he would have had the patience to get to know all of me so that he could then take the good with the bad.
Speaker 2:If that makes any sense, that makes a lot more sense. Yeah, you want to be flexible enough to say this part is something that I'm going to have to live with, or we have developed good communication skills so we can talk about something that is bothering me. Those are skills and behaviors and a maturity that comes through deepening a relationship. That comes through deepening a relationship and it's not going to be visible in the superficial dimension that is an online dating profile on a dating app. So, again, the game is just about getting the first date where someone can get to know you better.
Speaker 1:So we're going to take a quick break because many of you know, I went to this podcast conference in Denver a few weeks ago and I met so many people with so many great podcasts. I've shared a few of them and I want to share one more. That's so much fun, especially for Valentine's day. It's called Behind the Swipe and it's a podcast that takes you inside the world of online dating in the second half of life. A lot of us always wonder you know, if something happened to our spouse or if we got divorced, would we date again?
Speaker 1:It features real, unfiltered stories and perspectives from men and women in their 40s, 50s and beyond as they navigate the often confusing and sometimes thrilling experience of dating with a swipe. It sounds so scary to me. Each week, hoyt the host and an expert guest host explore topics ranging from long-distance relationships, profile fails to sex after 60, all through the lens of men and women who have taken the plunge and are seeking partners online, especially with this whole golden bachelor thing or silver bachelor, whatever it's called. This is quite an interesting look into dating later in life behind the swipe. I hope you'll listen In the world of Tinder.
Speaker 3:Have you seen that changing how people date? Because it doesn't seem to me that Tinder is a dating site necessarily more of the hookup reputation and especially for younger people. But it's been around a long time.
Speaker 2:I know a lot of people who meet on Tinder as well as every other dating app like Hinge or Bumble. It's just this entity out there, whether it's Tinder or another app. All dating apps or dating sites have losers, jerks, weirdos and creeps, but they also have wonderful human beings who would make a great husband or wife. These are mass mediums. There's just so much volume that you either have to invest the time to do it yourself and start swiping and texting and then going on a lot of first dates to weed through the ones who are bad to find the ones who are good, or you can have a dating coach do that on your behalf. Denise, you asked earlier about the difference between a matchmaker and a dating coach, actually a third category, which is an online dating concierge.
Speaker 2:So I can tell you the difference between all three. Okay, go for it. So an online dating concierge is someone that logs into your dating profile for you and swipes and messages on your behalf, almost impersonating you and this is a very popular and common thing now, and their job is to try to get you as fast as possible to a phone call or video date or in-person coffee date. They just try to take away that top filter that is so time consuming and annoying. It's just full of superficial chatter, the swiping and then the initial conversation like where are you from and what do you do? Your online dating concierge is answering all those annoying first demographic data questions that are really superficial and then trying to convert it, if the guy or the girl sounds good, into a phone call for you. That's an online dating concierge. They also write your profile for you. They help you get good photos, but it's all focused on making the dating app process less painful. Then a dating coach is someone who is giving you advice, similar to, I don't know, like a personal trainer at a gym. You're doing the work of dating, but they're on the sidelines telling you. Here are some ways that you can do something different that might have a different outcome, or I've noticed you tend to do this. Maybe if you tried it another way, it might work better. Also, just being an accountability partner and a cheerleader in the process, because it really is a process and it can get very discouraging. A dating coach is really advice giving and being an objective partner in your dating journey. And then, finally, a matchmaker does a lot of the work of a dating coach but also adds in one-on-one introductions. So a matchmaker has a private Rolodex of people that they know or who have they've met, and joined their Rolodex through their website.
Speaker 2:I mentioned earlier that there are almost 6,000 matchmakers now in the US. Many of us are part of internal private groups, either on Facebook or WhatsApp, and we have access to each other's clients and resources. So we collaborate all the time with each other and we do a lot of things. We reach out to our private alumni networks from our colleges or our grad schools. We hire recruiters to go to events or experiences and try to look for single people that might be appropriate fits for our clients. Whether it's going to a synagogue event or a TEDx conference or I don't know a fundraiser for a good cause. We hire recruiters to go out and look for matches that fit what we're looking for for our client. So there are a lot of ways that we find people and we then think about what our client really needs to be happy and try to make vetted and high quality introductions, one-on-one, to set them up on a date.
Speaker 1:What's the median?
Speaker 2:age. I don't know about the median age, because the range is probably anywhere from 23 to 80.
Speaker 2:Oh my gosh. But I'll tell you. What's really interesting is that the biggest growth segment in my business and many of my colleagues is the surge of parents hiring dating coaches and matchmakers for their young adults, hiring dating coaches and matchmakers for their young adults. And this is when I say young adults, I mean early twenties to early forties. I had a dad recently call me about his 42 year old daughter, who he really just genuinely wanted to help, and he said is there anything I can do in those cases? I say look, if I work with your young adult child, let me be clear that your role is just to pay the bill. It can't be involved. And so the client is your young adult child. And so if I'm going to work with them, I need them to be interested in this and we can have an initial conversation, but then it's like doctor-patient confidentiality. My role is to help them and I will send you the bill.
Speaker 1:This is making so much more sense to me. I think about something I've always said that the most important decision our children will make in their lives is who they select. As a spouse, especially, you want it to last. I love a lot of what you offer and I think parents, whether they pay for it or suggest it, I think it's a great. Last, I love a lot of what you offer and I think parents, whether they pay for it or suggest it, I think it's a great idea.
Speaker 1:I know the whole social media and all that, but I'm most concerned about kids who are working remotely. They graduate college and they're sitting in their apartments all day. I met all of my best friends in my early work years and continue to have those friends, so I worry a lot about that. But what I really want to ask is in them selecting their partners on their own, do you think that they choose their romantic partners based on their family environment they were raised in? How they grow up influence who they're looking for? Do they generally look for someone that's like their parents? What do you see going on here?
Speaker 2:Yeah, such a good question. There are a lot of dynamics that are at play and I think from the parent's perspective it's not always obvious. It's usually not obvious why kids choose a particular partner and what looks like someone who's similar or opposite of their mom or dad on the surface it's usually not indicative of what's underneath in their subconscious. Maybe it's something really simple and obvious on the surface, Like I don't know, like my mom worked full-time while we were growing up, so I want to find a woman who's passionate about her career. Or my dad had a great sense of humor, so I want a guy who makes me laugh. Sometimes it can be simple like that and it's visible on the surface, but usually it's not that straightforward. I don't know if you've heard of this well-known therapist and author named Lori Gottlieb.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah, read her books yeah.
Speaker 2:Yeah, she's great. She says this line that I'll never forget, which is that we marry our unfinished business. Our young adults might say I'm going to subconsciously, by the way that they might marry someone who's the opposite of whatever hurt they had when they were growing up. Unfortunately, we have a radar for what feels comfortable, what feels like home. We go after people who feel comfortable. Our subconscious mind might say oh, you look familiar, come closer. Your inner child is saying I'm going to pick a partner who gives me all the things I didn't get when I was growing up but I wish I had. Their conscious mind might think this person doesn't look anything like my parents on the surface, but then, when they get into that relationship that they're having with their boyfriend or girlfriend, they're surprised how familiar it feels.
Speaker 2:This kind of dynamic happens if they have a childhood hurt, and again, it doesn't have to be a deep and serious hurt.
Speaker 2:It could be something that is just perceived as a pain or a loss when they were growing up. You may not have ever known about it, but if they don't work out that unfinished business as an adult, either through therapy or some deep introspection or maybe even trial and error in other relationships, then that's going to play out in unhealthy dynamics in their choice of a partner. I guess my advice to parents is that if they're perplexed by the choices that their adult kids are making, they need to get curious and not judgmental about those choices. When the moment is right, maybe you could ask your child to share what they love most about their boyfriend or girlfriend and really listen and respond by just saying oh, that's interesting, tell me more about that, instead of trying to convey some sort of judgment like oh, I don't know why you think that's important. That never mattered to me when I was dating your father. It's just this game of listening to try to understand how childhood dynamics are playing out as adults.
Speaker 1:I want to piggyback on this question. Kirsten asked about the hookup culture. It seems to me that this generation does hook up more quickly than past generations. How does that impact finding a spouse? Do they waste time because this sexual excitement makes them feel like they found the partner and they realize when they really get to know them it's not the right partner. How do you advise your clients on that?
Speaker 2:Well, it is a very real dynamic. It is happening and we as parents are not going to have much to say about it. We can pretty much just tell them to be safe and use protection and get tested, because you may or may not know that 50% of all adults over 18 have an STD 50%, did you say.
Speaker 2:Yes, 50% some kind of STD and it doesn't mean they're having symptoms. It's not that it's always known, but I do always advise people to get tested before being with a new partner. I like to focus on the things I can influence, and young adults having sex more quickly than we used to when we were their age is not something I can influence. I can certainly tell somebody to spend more time getting to know a person before jumping into bed with them, but I think what has been really interesting in my business since the pandemic is that this may sound strange, because the pandemic was terrible in a million ways, but it was great for dating.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I've heard that, I know I just well. Our friend, our mutual friend's son, met his wife that he recently married during COVID, and they sat on a park bench six feet apart from each other for several months and talked.
Speaker 2:And that's a direct outcome of this hookup culture. During the pandemic, you got to know someone better, either virtually or six feet apart before you took off your mask. It helped young adults focus on deeper and more important qualities that predict long-term happiness, without a lot of other distraction. I think those behaviors have maybe lingered. I don't know for sure. I don't have any statistics, but I think that the video dating component of meeting somebody has grown out of the pandemic. When you have a FaceTime date or a Zoom date before meeting in person, which became really normal during COVID, you do get to know somebody better before you have a physical interaction with them. I do think that was one good outcome. Also, by the way, the pandemic really helped people prioritize dating. The loneliness and isolation that came from quarantining really lit a fire under singles to realize that finding a long-term partner and finding love is maybe more important than their jobs.
Speaker 3:That's a really interesting shift, I think. I mean it's certainly a positive, I guess, of the pandemic, if there can be one.
Speaker 1:Absolutely. I want to get to the point that the role the family plays. When someone has met the significant other or let's say, your kid brings home someone and they've been dating a while, they're finally ready to introduce them to the family the family's going to be really important how they react to that person, how they welcome that person. We have a group text with our whole family. How soon do you include that person in the group text? Do you wait till they're engaged, when they're married, or never? Or you know the family can either make it or break it possibly. So how do you deal with that? Or do you deal with the family at all?
Speaker 2:Of course, the family is a big presence in a lot of ways, both a literal presence and an emotional presence. I think there are a lot of issues here. First of all, there's the issue of whether or not the parents approve of the partner and whether or not they should say anything.
Speaker 1:I was going to ask that Go ahead.
Speaker 2:It's really tough because as parents we're used to giving our kids advice, having them listen and helping them make decisions when they're younger, to know that we can't tell them who to love, as much as we wish we could choose their partner and make that partner somebody that we're excited about as an entire family. That's going to fit right into our family culture. I don't think we really have that right anymore. I think you have to understand that there's probably a window of time when you can indicate some kind of concern about your child's choice in a boyfriend or girlfriend, and that window of time is early on in their relationship. If you bite your tongue for a year or two while they're dating somebody and then it gets serious and suddenly you express your disapproval after they've fallen in love or they're about to get engaged, you're risking a lifetime of alienation from your child. Frankly, at that point their allegiance is going to be to their partner and they're going to tell their partner everything you said about them.
Speaker 2:And that partner will never forget it. That partner will be married to your child for 20 or 30 years and they will always remember that you weren't on their side or you had a concern. So, practically speaking, if there is a concern, you need to bring it up sooner than later, and I wouldn't really convey disapproval, but you have to do it in terms of asking questions. Yeah, and so you also have to discern between what's important to you but maybe not to your child, because they have their own tastes and values and emotional needs. You can ask them valid questions, but not questions about like that reflect your own preferences. For example, I don't know if you have a concern that their boyfriend or girlfriend has anger issues or they have fundamental different values about honesty or integrity or loyalty, then formulate some questions with a third party.
Speaker 2:Don't go directly to your child with your knee-jerk questions.
Speaker 2:Pause and try to find a neutral third party, like a wise family friend, or maybe if you're seeing a therapist and say here's my concern, can you help me formulate the right questions for my child that aren't laden with disapproval or judgment?
Speaker 2:I guess that's like the first step and I don't know. I think that you have to really ask this question or this prompt tell me more. Because you're trying to uncover what they really get emotionally from a partner that you may not see or understand. But if you bring up the topic of their partner and ask questions like I'm so curious, you know what's one of your favorite things about this person you just start using this phrase tell me more, tell me more. You're going to get to the thing behind the thing behind the thing. Ultimately, the headline of what they initially tell you is never really going to be what's going on underneath. If you can go deeper in these conversations and understand something that may be happening behind closed doors that you don't see, you never understood about what your child needs you may actually come to love and appreciate their partner more than ever.
Speaker 1:I absolutely agree with that.
Speaker 3:And it's very interesting. I was just thinking. You know most of our audience are probably 50 plus. Does your advice change for this age group?
Speaker 2:Not at all. You know it's funny, it's it's really timeless. I mean for older singles or you know, I guess 50 plus I don't even like to call that older, but you know online dating is essential at any age, even if you don't like it and nobody does. By the way, there's 50 million people dating online and there's not one single person who likes it. It's a means to an end. You can use an online dating concierge, but you need professional photos and it works if you do it right.
Speaker 2:So, just like for our kids, dating is a skill. You can't get stuck in the notion that it's going to be as easy as it was in your 20s and it'll just happen when it's right. You should be proactive and it'll just happen when it's right. You should be proactive and whether it's hiring a matchmaker or dating coach, if you can afford it or there's so many free resources or inexpensive resources like reading books or listening to podcasts or just even asking your friends for feedback about things like your wardrobe or your hairstyle or your conversation skills but you need an objective opinion before you go out into the dating world, because if you invest the time upfront to do dating right, especially later in life, it's just going to happen so much faster.
Speaker 2:I guess the only other thing that comes to mind about older singles is that they often have an excuse for why they're going to do it later. They're going to put off dating when they lose 10 pounds, or when their kids go to college or when they're not so busy with this project. I just want to say to them that life is short and there is absolutely someone out there for you at any age, any city, any body type, any religion. It's just. The wonderful world of online dating is that it gives you so much more access to people that you would never have met if you were back on a college campus or back in a work environment where the number of people in your circles was just so much smaller. The world is big and there's a lot of amazing people out there, but you have to learn the skill of doing it right.
Speaker 1:Very interesting. I have to ask you about your fee schedule. How does it work? How much do people pay, or do you have a range? What would our listeners need to know if they wanted someone like you to work with their family or their adult child?
Speaker 2:Well, most matchmakers and dating coaches don't have fees that are like a one size fits all. It's not like a set price because it's a function of how much time I would spend helping someone. It's not like a set price because it's a function of how much time I would spend helping someone. It's more like being an executive recruiter. Some searches are faster and easier than others. Sometimes all a person needs, honestly, is like a one hour coaching session to tell them the key things to do and then, if they're smart and proactive, they might be able to take it from there. They might not even need me or somebody on an ongoing basis. So fees you asked about the structure. They're usually structured either hourly for coaching or sometimes like monthly coaching packages, and then matchmaking fees are typically a monthly retainer with like a three-month minimum, and then there's usually a success fee attached.
Speaker 2:Success is always defined individually. It doesn't always mean marriage. Often it means marriage, but sometimes it just means having a committed relationship for a year, or it could mean something intangible like, I don't know, feeling energized or self-confident about yourself and just getting experience with dating If you don't have a lot of experience in the past. I always co-create the meaning of success with each client. It's really expensive to hire a matchmaker or a dating coach. It's a very bespoke concierge service but you don't have to pay a lot of money for advice. You know there's a lot of great resources out there for your young adult kids. You could gift them books. Do you want to hear some of my favorite books?
Speaker 1:Sure, sure, absolutely.
Speaker 2:Go ahead, you've been so great.
Speaker 1:I've loved every minute of it. Go ahead.
Speaker 2:There are. Some of my favorite dating books are Attached by Amir Levine. I also like how to Not Die Alone by Logan Urie oh, I've heard of that one, okay. And Lori Gottlieb's book Marry Him is really good. There's a lot of great dating podcasts out there. Those are all free. There's one called let's Talk Love. There's another one I like called Dear Matchmaker, another one called the Asian Dating Podcast. There's one called the Yentas there are just so many and there's also inexpensive online dating boot camps that are out there. So, instead of a one-on-one service with a private matchmaker or dating concierge, there are these really inexpensive online resources Like. There's an online course called Smart Dating Bootcamp by Michelle Jacoby, which is excellent. There's another online dating class called Propel with Logan Urie, so you can just Google it.
Speaker 1:And I'll put links. We'll put links to all of that in our episode notes. How different is it for young people who come from a family where their parents had a difficult marriage, whether it be divorce or whether it was not a happy home to be in? How is that for them looking for a spouse? I mean I've heard some say I never want to get married. I haven't seen an example of a happy marriage. How is that for them looking for a spouse? I mean I've heard some say I never want to get married.
Speaker 2:I haven't seen an example of a happy marriage. How is that for them? Oh, it's such a powerful question because I think there's an assumption out there that children who come from divorced families might have a harder time making a commitment and finding the right partner because they grew up in an environment where they knew that marriage may be temporary or that there was a lot of friction between two parents that caused unhappiness or whatever. There are a million ways that it's impacted them. But I'll tell you something counterintuitive I have actually seen that it is the young adults whose parents were happily married for 25 or 50 years that have the harder time finding the right spouse. And let me explain why because they feel sort of almost a unrealistic belief that marriage is perfect and that what they saw as a child is that my parents didn't fight, my parents were always happy, my mom is perfect, my dad is perfect, had such a happy marriage ultimately may not have shown some of the not so great parts in front of their children, who then get into real relationships as young adults that could be very good and strong and loving relationships, but not perfect. No one's relationship is perfect, and so when they hit a speed bump in that relationship, they automatically think that that's not going to be the right person for them because it doesn't mirror their illusion of what they grew up thinking about their parents' marriage, whereas young adults who grew up in a divorced home they may often have trust issues or a lot of doubts about certain things and fears about marriage.
Speaker 2:But they also probably have seen that even if a divorce happens, even if they pick a partner that doesn't end up working out in the long run, they've seen, hopefully, that their mom and their dad went on to still be happy that they got divorced. They went on to meet somebody else and hopefully they were happier and it wasn't the end of the world. And even if you're a young adult whose parents got divorced and is maybe still single or isn't super happy after that divorce, they still have a great life probably. And just knowing that divorce isn't the end of the world actually helps them choose partners that know how to have healthy and productive conflict and partners that aren't perfect but make them happy. And those choices are often stronger than the inaction that I see a lot of kids make because they can't commit to something that's not perfect.
Speaker 3:Wow, that's powerful.
Speaker 1:Very powerful. Kirsten, I've talked a lot. You asked for the takeaways.
Speaker 3:Okay, absolutely Before we say goodbye and this has really been amazing. You've answered a ton of our questions and helped explain some of what we're certainly seeing with our kids and their dating habits or not dating habits, depending on the day. I always like to ask for two to three takeaways that you want our listeners to really think about and remember. Can you share those with us?
Speaker 2:Sure, it's hard to just boil it down to two or three, but I guess the fundamental takeaway I would want parents to understand and to convey to their young adult kids is simply that dating is a learned skill, like learning a foreign language, and it's something your adult child can get better at.
Speaker 2:It's not a fixed situation, because dating is more complicated today with online dating apps and everything else that we've talked about. It's just really important for parents to offer help in any way that makes sense for them, whether it's just listening and having open conversations, whether it's helping them financially with some dating resources. It's very normal and, I think, very positive today, of course, you have to let your adult child choose their own partner. You can't tell them who to love, but you can support them in so many ways by initiating open conversation ways. By initiating open conversation. Remember that phrase I mentioned tell me more, and just keep saying it. Tell me more, tell me more until they tell you the thing behind the thing behind the thing, what's really going on, and understanding that, as a parent, is ultimately going to direct you toward the best way you can help them.
Speaker 1:That was wonderful, Rachel. Thank you so much. This certainly changed my mind about matchmaking and dating resources. I've learned so much about the dating world that I had no idea.
Speaker 2:I'm so glad I got a chance to talk to you. I am such a big fan of the Bite your Tongue podcast. I've been telling all my friends that they have to listen to this, so it was really an honor to have this conversation with both of you today.
Speaker 3:Thank you, rachel. This was really really special. I appreciate it. There are some things I'm going to be sharing with my children.
Speaker 1:Ditto, ditto, ditto. Thanks a lot, so that's a wrap. I hope all of you enjoyed dipping into this world of dating and our young adult children as much as I did. I think I didn't realize how little I understood about this new world of dating, and I hope you will listen to the podcast we mentioned during the episode that was about dating at our age, behind the Swipe. I think you'll find it interesting and fun. Kirsten, what was your takeaway today? It was quite an episode.
Speaker 3:Wow, it was great. I think the most important thing I heard for me is just this really is a skillset, and is there a way we can teach our kids what those skills are at some point before they are adults?
Speaker 1:And I guess her what was her phrase? She always wanted to say tell me more, tell me more. I took that away as well. Thanks again to all our listeners. Remember to support our work. By going to our website and clicking the support us tab. You'll find a way to buy us a virtual cup of coffee. It's just five bucks. Also, follow us on social media. Send us your ideas and questions to biteyourtonguepodcastcom.
Speaker 3:And thank you again to Connie Gordon Fisher, our audio engineer.
Speaker 2:Have a great Valentine's Day everybody, but remember, sometimes you just have to bite your tongue.
