Bonus Rewind: Transforming Parenting Roles for a Resilient Future

How do we transform our parenting roles as our children become young adults?
Today we speak with Julie Lythcott-Hames, former Stanford University dean and bestselling author of "How to Raise an Adult" and "Your Turn." Joined by guest co-host Erica Gardner-Gray, we unravel the complexities of modern parenting, addressing societal pressures and the myth of effortless achievement.

As a parent herself, Lythcott-Haims acknowledges that parenting young adults is a continuous learning process. Despite her credentials and expertise, she humbly admits that she is still figuring things out and undoing patterns in her own journey. She encourages listeners not to interpret her words as criticism but rather as lessons learned from her own experiences.

We examine the long-term effects of over-involvement on millennials and Gen Z. From helicopter parenting to the financial and emotional implications of extended adolescence, we tackle the difficult dynamics that parents face today. Strategies are offered for navigating this terrain, highlighting the importance of finding a delicate balance between supporting and enabling, and the necessity of preparing young adults to fend for themselves in an increasingly complex world.

We discuss practical steps for supporting young adults, emphasizing the value of allowing them to learn from their challenges and lead their own lives. 

Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
Send your ideas for episodes and guests to biteyourtonguepodcast@gmail.com.

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Chapters

• 0:01 Raising Responsible Adults + Your Turn
• 7:48 Parenting in the Age of Over-Involvement
• 12:57 Supporting Young Adults in Transition
• 24:06 [Ad] Modem Futura
• 24:51 (Cont.) Supporting Young Adults in Transition
• 26:33 Modern Parenting and Personal Responsibility
• 33:56 Transitioning to Adulthood
• 43:49 Parenting as a Loving Coach
• 50:54 Exploring Retirement Podcasts for Balance

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Hey everyone, this is our last episode rewind while we've been taking a break, and it's a great one. In fact, our editor, connie Gorant-Fisher, when she edited this, called me and said boof. I really like this episode. Julie's the author of how to Raise an Adult and your Turn. She's also a former dean at Stanford University, but she really dives deep into the challenging world of raising children into responsible adults. She discusses the societal pressures that implore parents to hover, the pitfalls of over-parenting, and so much more. I think you'll really like this episode Again. Even if you've listened once, listen again. So let's get started.

Speaker 2: 0:47

Listen again. So let's get starting. It's not you can be anything you want. It's if you work really hard, you have a good chance of being what you want. You know it's that the condition precedent is hard work and get yourself back up when you fall. Hard work, work, ethic plus plus resilience will get you far. Like we believe in you. We believe in your dreams, but you have to work your tail off to achieve them. I think that's what was missing for a lot of millennials. I hear them talking about it. It was like they said we could be anything. It turns out it's much harder than that. Yeah, it is much harder than that.

Speaker 1: 1:20

Welcome to another episode of Bite your Tongue, the podcast. Before we introduce today's guest, I'm so happy to announce I have a guest co-host with me. Welcome to Erica Gardner-Gray. She's been an avid listener of the podcast since we launched and reached out to me with some thoughts and suggestions about the episodes. I love so many of her ideas. So, on a whim, I asked her would you like a turn at being the co-host? She was a little bit reluctant, but she agreed. I'll let her tell you more. Welcome, Erica. Can you let listeners know a little bit more about you before we begin.

Speaker 3: 1:55

Thanks, denise, you're right, I was reluctant and I'm still a little reluctant, but it's a thrill to be here with you today as your co-host. I've always been somewhat of a self-help junkie and I was so delighted when my friend Debbie told me about Bite your Tongue. It's perfect for my current stage of life and I found it both provocative and entertaining and enlightening. Larry, my husband of 39 years, and I have two sons, both in their 30s. One of them is married and has a five-year-old and a four-year-old, and the other one is still single. So you can see how many of the topics on this podcast are relatable for me. After my prior career in medical corporate America and more recently as owner of my own interior design firm, this opportunity is a welcome change. But enough about me. Would you like to introduce our guest Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 2:45

Thank you so much, eric. I'm thrilled to have you. You know, I didn't realize. You've been married 39 years. I've been married 39 years too, so we've got something in common and also two young adults about the same age, although mine's one's a girl and one's a boy, so no wonder we like each other. Anyway, I want the listeners to know at the end of the episode, eric and I are going to share some of our favorite podcasts that we think you all might like. But let's get started.

Speaker 1: 3:10

Today we are so pleased to welcome Julie Lithcott Hames. What an honor this is for us. If you look at Julie's website, it says I root for humans. She believes in humans and is deeply interested in what gets in our way. Her work encompasses writing, speaking, teaching, mentoring and activism. She is the New York Times bestselling author of how to Raise an Adult, which gave rise to the popular TED Talk, and I'll link that in our episode notes. Today we're going to talk to her about her new book called your Turn how to Be an Adult. It's been called, groundbreakingly, frank. Julie holds degrees from Stanford, harvard Law and California College of the Arts. She lives in Palo Alto, california, with her partner of over 30 years, their itinerant young adults and her mother. Welcome Julie. Is there anything else you'd like to share about yourself before we get started?

Speaker 2: 4:06

Oh, my goodness, I guess just that I'm a parent of a 24 and a 22-year-old and I'm still figuring that out, even though I'm a so-called expert in some ways on parenting. I want folks to know I am in it with you, I am undoing and repatterning and figuring stuff out. So everything you hear me say, don't take it as critique. I'm on my journey and I'm trying to share with you some of the lessons I've learned the hard way.

Speaker 1: 4:32

Oh, Julie, I love that. I think you know this whole issue of parenting young adults is something that's kind of growing. You know, someone said to me it's the longest relationship we have with our children. I mean 18, they're up and gone. We need to nurture that so that the next 40, 50 years, God willing, we have a good relationship with them. So I appreciate that. So, Erica, I'm going to start. Is that okay? Yeah, Okay. So, Julie, you love humans, you root for humans. What does this mean and what do you want our listeners to understand about that mantra? So we know a little bit more about who you are.

Speaker 2: 5:08

No one has ever pressed me on this, so thank you for the opportunity. I actually, in my heart, in my spirit, I care about humans. Many of us do. I'm not unique in that, but I really mean it. So I take an interest in the struggles of people around me. I'm not trying to solve everybody's problems, but I am trying to show up with compassion, letting people know that I believe in them, letting them know I respect them, trying to treat them with dignity, trying to be of some use if I can. I'm one of those people that doesn't see this human journey as a race that some of us win. I actually think we don't win unless we all get there. So I'm trying to do my part.

Speaker 1: 5:47

That's terrific. It really drew my attention when I was reading about you and I thought maybe all of us need to be a little bit more like that nowadays.

Speaker 2: 5:56

Nice.

Speaker 3: 5:57

You've written many books, but the two we're going to talk about today are titled how to Raise an Adult and your Church. One is a message to parents about how to raise a responsible adult, and the other is a message to all of us who grow up to be an adult. Tell us how you came to write both of these and what they mean to you, both as a parent and as an adult, maruth.

Speaker 2: 6:19

These two books are really the flip side of the same coin. When I was a dean at Stanford University, I had the privilege of working with 18 to 22-year-olds to be someone who rooted for them, tried to shine a light on their path and help them figure themselves out. In that work I saw that many were still quite handheld by parents, as if they were 5 or 11 instead of 18 or 22. And I could see the damage it seemed to have on their sense of agency, their skills and their mental health. So I decided to write that parenting book how to Raise an Adult really based on what I'd seen, as well as interviews with a whole lot of other people about what they were seeing around the country, not only at colleges and universities but in the workplace, k-12.

Speaker 2: 7:04

So that parenting manual exists and is my first book, but it was based on me really trying to advocate for young adults to be able to thrive in this one life of theirs. So your Turn, which is the more recent book, is the flip side. It's the book for kids, rooting for them to thrive. It doesn't have parenting advice in it. It has advice for young people on the choices, how to make the choices and how to cope with stuff and what to prioritize and so on, but both books emanate from the same center point, which is me rooting for young people.

Speaker 3: 7:36

So you know I'm sorry, go ahead, erica Do you think that parents are more involved with their kids at the request of their kids, or do you think that the parents have their own needs to be more involved with their children?

Speaker 2: 7:48

Well, I think there's a third piece missing, which is is society pressuring parents to be more involved? This is such a commonplace manner of parenting. It's not new any longer. There was a time when it was new and odd, but really millennials and now Gen Z have been raised with this over parenting approach so it has become the norm in many communities, which makes it hard to stand up to or even for parents to realize that it may be too much. It just seems to be the way everyone's doing it, so why would they not?

Speaker 2: 8:19

I think some kids are asking for more involvement, but kids don't know what childhood is supposed to be right If they look around and see well, everyone else's parents are, you know, at every soccer practice, or everyone else's parents are kind of helping with the homework, doing the homework. You know, why aren't you helping me? Like I can't figure this out and you do my homework? Well, it's on the parent to say actually, this homework is yours. It's a compact between you and the teacher.

Speaker 2: 8:45

I can answer a question here or there, I can give you feedback, I can try to give you advice, but I'm not going to do your homework, no matter how many other parents are sort of lightening the load by finishing it for you. That's wrong. It won't help you grow to be a better student or a better grown-up one day. So it's not on kids to know that that parental involvement is too much. It's on us as parents to really, I think, summon a memory from the 80s or the 70s or the 60s or the 50s, when we were being raised and say like wait a minute, my parents weren't doing my homework.

Speaker 1: 9:18

What am I doing? My parents didn't even know I went to take the SAT.

Speaker 3: 9:22

Right.

Speaker 1: 9:23

And now they're taking 15 classes before they take the SAT. This also goes to what you talk about. Sometimes a kid is the pet project of the parent and they're raising them to be X, y or Z. And you also talk about this whole issue of perfectionism and parents seeking perfectionism, and that puts a lot of pressure on the kid. How does a parent that maybe was involved? So here we're talking to parents of adult kids they could be anywhere from 18 to 35, because honestly I'll get to that later how long adolescence is taking these days? Right, what do we say to parents of adult kids that can't let go and still see their child as their pet project or this yearning for perfectionism? What are the steps they can take?

Speaker 2: 10:06

Well, I'm going to answer this question with what I should have said also in response to the last question, which is one of the reasons we do this, and I say we because I have done it. We over-parent our adult children out of our own ego's need to be useful, to matter, or out of deep anxieties that we have about ourselves. So we've got to treat that kid like the project or the dog in the dog race or the thoroughbred going in the Kentucky Derby, like I will feel better about myself when I can say to my peers my child has achieved this, is a graduate of, that is in this career right, our need. Something is unwell or incomplete or not enough within ourselves, such that our child becomes the evidence of our worth, which is incredibly unhealthy.

Speaker 1: 10:58

For ourselves and the kid.

Speaker 2: 11:00

Yeah, absolutely Absolutely. So I'm here to say we can change. I, my partner Dan, and I have been hard at work doing what I call repatterning with our 24 year old, our eldest, with whom we were way overprotective. I tried to make life easier because he was really a wonderful kid but also very sensitive. We just tried to smooth the path, take the tough things away. Well, he became a young adult who can't handle the tough things and we realized no, the loving thing is to empathize with whatever the struggle is and then empower by evincing confidence that one day it won't be this hard. So now the family mantra is you know what? This looks hard, but you do hard things. Smile, walk away. And my little heart is pounding as I walk away because I want to, you know, make it easier for that kid. But the more I practice it, the more confident I get and the more I see him light up with oh my mother believes in me instead of oh my mother doesn't believe in me. Thank goodness she's there to do it for me.

Speaker 3: 11:57

I think finding that middle ground is really really hard for a lot of us.

Speaker 1: 12:01

Yeah, we just interviewed Lauren Steinberg who wrote this new book. I'm sure you've heard of you and your Adult Child how to Grow Together in Challenging Times and he really talks about how adolescence is lasting until 26, 27, 28. And he says it's parents. He says similarly to what you say about parents being over-involved, going to all the soccer games, blah, blah, blah. But also he brought up a lot of very empathetic for the world these kids are growing up in today, meaning that one of the things he said was real estate's growing four times more than salaries. It's very hard to get a foothold, so how long do you support? How much do you support? What's that happy medium? Like Erica said that we have to meet. How do we get there?

Speaker 3: 12:45

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 12:46

I mean Steinberg is raising a really good point about the widening income inequities that salary and wages haven't kept up with the cost of living, and it's certainly true where I live here in the San Francisco Bay Area. And yet if we hold our kids' hands forever and then one day we're dead and gone or infirm, then they're really going to be lost because they've been taught that I'm okay when my parents are holding my hand. Well, that's not a promise we can keep forever. So I would advise every parent keep your eye on the long-term purpose of parenting, which is raise that offspring to be able to fend for themselves without you. We hope to not be taken from them too early, but along the way we're supposed to be transferring our knowledge to them and teaching them and letting them have the life experiences that teach them. So the line is I have this four-step method for teaching any kid any skill. First you do it for them and we're really good at that and you do it with them, like they're there but you're doing, you're doing the work, but you're supposed to be kind of teaching the work, narrating out loud. Now we do this. Now we're going to do this. Now we're going to do this.

Speaker 2: 13:51

Step three you watch them do it. They're in the driver's seat, you're. You're in the passenger seat, you can grab the wheel in an emergency. Step four they can do it. You're out of the car and you've confidence. You both have confidence that they've practiced through steps two and three enough they know how to do it. So, in other words, you don't leave them, you know. You don't drop them cold turkey. You don't do everything for a person and then abandon them. Right, you teach them. You have a goal of I want my kid to be capable of doing this.

Speaker 2: 14:20

So when it comes to rent, you decide like is my kid a hard worker? Do they have a job? Right, put those expectations in place. And if that job doesn't earn enough wage or salary to comport to what basic minimum rent is in your town, then you may have to figure out all right, are we going to subsidize in some way that recognizes you're a hard worker, but rents are out of control?

Speaker 2: 14:43

Maybe you can afford to do that, maybe you can't. Maybe it's that tough conversation where you say I'm so sad our area has become unaffordable for young people. Thankfully, there are many other places in this country where it's not out of balance. We might see Gen Z moving to the heartland, where there are cities with great jobs and reasonable cost of living. I mean, maybe that's how regions get repopulated, because young people can't afford to live here in the Bay Area or on the coasts anymore. I don't know. But there are solutions available and they all entail ultimately empowering the young adult to get farther out there in life, do more and more for themselves, rather than bring them home into their childhood bedroom, pat them on the head and say don't worry, it'll always be okay, because it won't will be gone, and then they will be lost.

Speaker 3: 15:31

How important do you think it is to put timeframes for helping them? Yeah, for example, when you were saying, help the kids with the rent, if it's too much, do you say I'll help you for some finite amount of time, and then there's an expectation that they figure it out right forward.

Speaker 2: 15:48

I think these are conversations that have to be had. So, yes, and every kid is different. Some kids have mental health challenges and they're not going to be as equipped to kind of support themselves as soon as others might. They might be in a field that doesn't pay very well. My kid, for example, is an aide for kids with special needs in the public schools. Well, I love that. I think it's God's work and angels work, but sure doesn't pay, for he's represented by a union. But that salary isn't going to cover a studio apartment anywhere near where we live. So do I want to tell him he can't do that for a living? Do I want to tell him he should do it in a different part of the country? Or do I want to partially subsidize his situation? And that's the route my partner and I have taken partially subsidizing. But we won't do it forever. We haven't yet figured out for how long, but that hard conversation is coming. He's 24 now.

Speaker 1: 16:43

But don't you think? I mean for me, as long as they're working and working hard, no one's going to do that job, because no one can afford to live on that, and we need good people in those jobs. And that's the same thing with teaching. Yeah, jessica Gross at the New York Times just wrote a call on the. No one wants to be a teacher, and yet it's the teachers that are shaping the future Right, and so it's really hard. But I want to say one more thing. You talk about moving to the heartland, and I get that, but the political climate of our country right now is becoming really difficult.

Speaker 2: 17:16

Yeah. So I would say a couple of things.

Speaker 2: 17:18

not to presume everyone on the listening, I know I know the same politics, but I certainly get and agree with you If a person is from a blue state looking to move to a more affordable red state, so to speak. Typically the urban environment wherever you go is quite liberal and progressive. So even if the entire state tends to swing red, the cities tend to be blue. That's true almost everywhere. So be heartened by that and when I say the heartland I'm also talking about places in Ohio and places in Wisconsin and places in Illinois that there's plenty of progressive people there. So I would Google if I'm a young person listening right now or a parent of 22 to 35,.

Speaker 2: 17:59

I would Google best cities for young adults. They're gonna tell you about cost of living, cost to rent or buy a place, quality of life, nightlife, social activities and so on. Right, those places exist. In fact, some of them have grants like we'll pay you to come to our city.

Speaker 1: 18:16

Well, I think this abortion issue is a big one. I've heard a lot of young people say I'm not moving to a state that will not allow a woman the right to choose.

Speaker 2: 18:24

Everybody has to make choices. You're looking at a Black person, black and biracial. I also identify as queer. I very much believe we have to find our people. We have to find our communities, both in work and in relationship, where we can be our true selves without persecution, prosecution or, just you know, massive difficulties. So let's get really outside the box.

Speaker 2: 18:47

It may be that our adult children don't want to leave Silicon Valley or New York or these other expensive places. Fine, they're going to live with us. What are the parameters? How could they live with us and behave as adults, instead of us feeling like we still have our teenager, who's now 35, at home? It's about agreements. It's about boundaries, respecting that they ought to be able to come and go as they please, just like we do, but also respecting that they will contribute to the family household far more than the chores they did as a child. They should now be doing some of the grocery shopping and they should be looking out for grandma and they should be thinking about, like augment, whatever they were responsible for as a kid ratcheted up. It comes with more responsibility, but also more freedom. You know, it is possible to live, to coexist as adults in the same house, as long as everybody is treated as and assumes the responsibility of an adult.

Speaker 1: 19:43

There's something really beautiful about multi-generational living and many countries do it. The problem is it goes back to the thing we said at the beginning your ego gets in the way. Johnny's living at home.

Speaker 2: 19:54

Right. So what we have to say is it's really unaffordable here. So Johnny's living at home, but we're really proud of him. We give him his space, he contributes beautifully. So of him, we give him his space, he contributes beautifully. So you know, he's an adult, we all just still happen to live together, right? And then Johnny's got to respect your adult life. I mean, I, I've got a Johnny, I've got a 24 year old.

Speaker 2: 20:13

For us he's the aide for kids with special needs. We charge him rent that is one third of his gross income, because that's what the formula is. But we're saving that money for him so that when he's ready to go get an apartment, he's got some saved for a security deposit and first and last month's rent, right, it's all in furtherance of that one day. But we also had to say to him you know, could you and your friends maybe play D&D at someone else's house, because we kind of need some alone time? And he was like, oh really, I mean, we were, we lost our empty nest. We missed that and it's important to be able to have this conversation instead of. Well, I guess our life is deferred until our son gets his situation worked out Like no, everybody matters, be able to speak as frankly as you can. Agreements, boundaries, commitments, gratitude. Thanks so much, son, for taking care of the dishes when it was my turn. I really appreciate you, just like you would say to any adult.

Speaker 1: 21:09

That leads you to that good question, erica, that we talked about, yeah.

Speaker 3: 21:13

In your book you quote Madeline Levine's message that we should support our kids in being who they are by giving them the opportunity to fit the kid, as opposed to trying to make our kid fit our notion of who they should be. With many adults today, that trial and error of our kids seems to be going on a long time. How long do we support it and when do we have, or do we have, some responsibility to point out the obvious financial ramifications of continuing to try things hard?

Speaker 2: 21:48

Yeah, it's case by case. Foundationally, fundamentally, I mean, humans want to be successful. They want to create things. They want to do things with their hands or their body or their brains. We feel great satisfaction from work if it's work that we're good at and we love. So we want to be pushing our kids.

Speaker 2: 22:06

We want to set that expectation that it is not a thing for you to want to live here forever. It is not a thing for you to just like we make dinner for you night after night and you sit on the couch like you know you you've got to get out there, and a kid who doesn't want to get out there might be dealing with some depression or some anxiety. Get that treated, get that worked on depression or some anxiety. Get that treated, get that work done, because they ought to be yearning. They ought to be yearning for independence and freedom and responsibility and all that. They ought to be yearning to live with peers instead of with us. So we've got to signal that those things matter and are important. We've got to say like in a year I don't think you'll still be living here, you know, certainly not in two years, right?

Speaker 1: 22:45

I one time heard someone say and this was when my kids were like in high school, maybe going to college you want a loving environment at home, but not too comfortable, right, you know meaning. They can't go out to a bar and bring home a guy or a girl to spend the night. And you're open to that because sometimes the main reason they want to leave is to have sex, because sometimes the main reason they want to leave is to have sex.

Speaker 1: 23:05

I know that sounds terrible to say, but they don't want their mom and dad or mom or whoever it is their guardians knowing what they're doing all the time. So if you allow too much and make it too comfortable, it might be even harder for them to leave. I don't know. What do you think about that?

Speaker 2: 23:20

Well, that's a really good point and I think modern parenting is there's an upside, there's a downside to the closeness too much handholding, too much hovering. But the upside is we know them, they know us, we really like each other. We're more likely to know the names of their friends, their teachers and so on. So then it's harder to say like you can't be who you are in this home. I don't care if you're in a relationship, not in my house. We're just we. We aren't the my way or the highway. Children are to be seen, but not her generation. You know we're much more permissive. So you're absolutely right, we can't make homes so cushy that they would never want to leave. They're supposed to want to leave and get their own life because they're sick and tired of living under our house and our rules. You know that's a real heavy lift for this generation of parents. I respect the challenge of it, but I also really appreciate the wisdom of it.

Speaker 3: 24:44

I liked your term self-efficacy. I call it the little engine. That could Maybe the most important book we ever read our kids, and we have done a great job maybe too great a job teaching them that they can do anything they want to do, and now that they're adults, they're learning they have limitations. So what's the in-between message that parents of adult children should be talking about with them?

Speaker 2: 25:10

Yeah, it's not. You can be anything you want. If you work really hard, you have a good chance of being what you want. You know it's that. The condition precedent is hard work and get yourself back up when you fall. Hard work, work ethic plus resilience will get you far. Like we believe in you. We believe in your dreams, but you have to work your tail off to achieve them. I think that's what was missing for a lot of millennials. I hear them talking about it. It was like they said we could be anything. It turns out it's much harder than that. Yeah, it is much harder than that.

Speaker 1: 25:43

You have such an amazing background in all your studies and I just wonder historically we went from the way we were raised. You know they rang the dinner bell to come home. They didn't know where we were. And I know the world has changed. Ok, but I want to go into why you think our generation of parents have ended up in this state. Does that make sense? Sure, sort of having kids that aren't ready to launch, or even 25 percent of adult kids are estranged from their parents. You know what is this about. What is it historically and just in our world that has caused this kind of change?

Speaker 2: 26:19

So that statistic on 25% are estranged is new to me so I haven't read about it, I haven't studied it. My hypothesis there is when somebody has been micromanaged, they at some point say to heck with this, I'm out of here, you do not have the right to know my whereabouts, you do not have the right to know about every minute detail of my life. It is too much. It feels like surveillance, it feels like an encroachment into privacy and anybody raised that way at some point. I'm rooting for them to leave and say stop, and if you can't stop, I'm out of here. And so I'm guessing that there is some element of that 25% that has had it. I am not your dog on a leash and if you don't realize that, then I'm going off leash. I hope they're still open to their parents learning and growing and being willing to kind of forge that healthy relationship one day. But who knows? Look here's how it started Overparenting, or what we call helicopter parenting, micromanaging parenting actually began in the 80s.

Speaker 2: 27:21

The term was coined by 1990 based on what had changed in the 80s, and it was these things we started bubble wrapping their entire lives in the 80s little guards and protectors on everything. Prepare the road for the child, instead of preparing the child for the road. It was like we are so worried we're always going to have a helmet on you or have a bubble wrap on the edge of the sharp thing or the road. It was like we are so worried we're always going to have a helmet on you or have a bubble wrap on the edge of the sharp thing or the corner. So we got very overly concerned about safety Instead of letting the physical environment teach the kids how to use their bodies. It was like no, no, no, let's just bubble wrap everything. We became very sort of show up at not just games but practices for soccer and you know, you're amazing and you're great and oh, congrats. You swung a bat. Like we became these over praising people and made you know kids like my parents always here, my parent thinks I'm great and my parents always going to handle everything. We created the play date instead of kids going out and finding kids to play with. It was that's not safe, don't do that.

Speaker 2: 28:22

I think it was, frankly, a commentary on women in the workplace in the 70s. Like no, no, no. Now we have to have every hour after school arranged by parents, structured by parents or some third party Stranger. Danger was born. Don't talk to strangers, you never know what can happen.

Speaker 2: 28:35

So we've got this overbroad rule that has led to rudeness in kids. Like they won't you say hi on a sidewalk, they look at you like you're a creep. Well, they're not learning how to interact in their environment and they're learning to be afraid of their environment. So all of this, these kids, who had the first play date in 1984, were the first kids to come to college in the late 90s with parents who could not let go, still wanted to be involved in interpersonal, still wanted to talk to authorities on their behalf, still wanted to hold their hand and handle the problem solving and all of that. So we do it because now it's the norm, but we also do it because of this ego need to feel useful and validated. It's sort of become the hallmark of modern parenting is look what I achieved for my kid today, instead of this pride and like I'm teaching my kid to do for themselves today.

Speaker 3: 29:23

I understand what you're saying about that. That makes a lot of sense to me, and certainly the flip side of it, though I'm wondering, as you're talking, is the sense of responsibility to not shirk our duties. On one hand, yes, you can say it, so their parents have their ego gratification, but sometimes for me, if I don't say something or I don't do something, I feel like I am letting them go too much and shirking my responsibility and being a bad parent.

Speaker 2: 30:02

So it's so hard to to say that kids who are raised by working class families often have to do more chores around the house look after young children, maybe have a part-time job, start dinner.

Speaker 2: 30:09

They have to do more work because their parents' job situation is nuts and they emerge to young adulthood far more self-reliant, far more accountable and responsible than their more affluent counterparts who don't seem to know how to do anything because they've never been asked to do anything. You know, yes, there is, at some point, neglect, like you were never there for your kid. You don't know where they are, you didn't show up, you didn't care, right, we don't want to be at that end of the spectrum, nor do we want to be acting like this is my pet dog and I'm going to carry them with me at all times. You know to be able to say to your kid if you're busy, like pick the activity that's really important to you and I will be there, Can't be there, all you know and every single one. I work full time, I've got other kids, I've got other things right. You share, you show with your body language and with your actual language that you care, you praise them for the things they're doing. Well no-transcript.

Speaker 1: 31:26

You know, I used to hear the phrase benign neglect and sometimes some of the best kids raised with benign neglect. They felt loved. It just wasn't overpowering. I used to say my kids are older now but I wish I would have raised my kids the way I raised my dog. Go to your crate, you know. Instead, I was always worried about how I was treating them emotionally and was like and I hurt their self-esteem. And what I really want to ask is this isn't changing. Julie, you've written these books. People are talking about it left and right, but every time I bring this up or talk about it to even young friends and teachers don't come into the schools. Now it's worse than it's ever been. Is that true?

Speaker 2: 32:29

I think COVID has certainly wreaked havoc on everything, of course, and I'm hearing from teachers that kids seem younger than ever. A there seems to be a lessening or a lesser maturity attached to the ages where we'd think you should be mature by now, but that's been in progress for quite some time. I think. You know, nobody would say to an 18-year-old today well, you know, up or out, you're 18. Like, we're still calling them children when they're 35, right, but in my generation I'm Gen X, born in 1967.

Speaker 2: 32:58

A lot of us were told you can live here until you're 18, but that's it. We went to the military, we went to college or we went to the workplace. I'm waiting for someone to say no one in their right mind should be allowed to join the military at 18 because they're still children. Some people believe that and to look at Steinberg's work on adolescents, are they really old enough to make that decision? Has that much changed in them in terms of their cognitive and psychosocial, emotional development? I don't know, but I do think, bigger picture, we have to be interested in our youth learning the skills, the practical skills, the skills around human interaction, how to solve their problems, how to cope when things go wrong how to get back up. I mean, what's to become of us if the next generation can't do those things?

Speaker 1: 33:42

You're right. You're absolutely right, absolutely right. There was something you talked about how can parents and mentors sort of support this transition from adolescence to adulthood without enabling or imposing expectations? What steps can parents take to help the kid? I mean, they may have already done everything you've said. They've been to every soccer game, they wrote the college admission thing and the kid got into a great college. Now the kid can't find a job, doesn't really know how to go about finding a job. How can the parent take steps to correct some of those mistakes they made earlier on?

Speaker 2: 34:17

So sometimes the parent isn't the right person anymore because our relationship is so intertwined. A lot of people with you know, who are middle class or above, who have some extra money, will hire that executive function coach. If your kid can't seem to put a resume together or figure out how to use the internet to find jobs that are available, get that third party signed up. Hired to work with your kid X number of hours a week. It sets an expectation that this is important. We're not the best teachers of it. We're hiring somebody to work with you. Your obligation is countable to them. Point being, there are skills to be taught and it's high time our kid learned. If a kid isn't motivated to get a job again, maybe they're depressed, maybe something's going on. It's a sign. If a body isn't in motion, if it's stagnant, something's up. We've got to be on the lookout for that. So some combination of good therapy and good coaching might be the path forward that makes sense.

Speaker 3: 35:13

I love that idea of bringing an expert into the equation, even if we ourselves have the ability to be handling that role, because that's a distancing in and of itself. That can be helpful for the adult kids to know that they have other resources because, god forbid, something happens to us. They need to know their alternatives Right.

Speaker 1: 35:34

That's absolutely true. I also think it doesn't even have to be paid help. I sometimes use a friend, a neighbor, a relative. Hey, could you talk to my kid about this? I'm concerned about it. They may be more open with you than they would be with me. Yeah, for sure.

Speaker 2: 35:49

And I think it's also okay to evince a future that you want to see come about. So you might say I know it's hard now, but I also know that within a couple of years you're going to have a job Articulate the future you're trying to. A couple of years feels like a long time. Six months, three months. You're going to have a job, articulate the future you want. It tells your kid you believe they can get there. And that's one of the things that's missing from this micromanaging parenting. All of our overhelp sends this insidious message I don't believe you can do this. Therefore, don't worry, I've got it. We're trying to be helpful, but it totally undermines. So one of the best ways will help a young adult problem solve, whether they're in your face or they're texting you, is to express compassion oh, I'm so sorry. That sounds so hard, are you okay? I love you. And then smile and say let me know how you handled it and walk away or put the phone down. I'm not talking about an emergency, that I'm bleeding on the street. I'm just talking about a run of the mill. Didn't do this, forgot about that. Got to figure this out.

Speaker 2: 36:54

My son is a teacher's aide. As I said, he's a member of his union trying to advocate for higher wages and they had a conference and he was invited to be a rep for his union. He blew the deadline to sign up for a hotel in the hotel block and he was stressed out of his mind and in the past I would have been stressed, I would have been there handling it for him, but I said I knew better. So I said you know what. This is hard, but you do hard things. I'm happy to sit here at the table and do my work while you do this, just for moral support. But you've got this.

Speaker 2: 37:30

He, in his very stressed out way, found the email, found the information, called a hotel in Nevada, spoke with a clerk because all the rooms online he could tell the block of rooms reserved was already full. It was too late. So then he had to go to a plan B. Boy, I could feel the stress slaking off of him and I was really proud of myself for staying regulated. I wasn't trying to help, but I also wasn't mean or like I told you. So I didn't do that. I just was present and with my kind, silent presence he felt rooted for.

Speaker 1: 37:55

You don't seem like the silent type to me. Sorry, judah, I'm not the silent type either, so I know how hard it is to bite your tongue. You want to jump in and talk to the clerk.

Speaker 2: 38:06

Hi, thank you so much. He's my right. Nothing else I knew. This moment was training him for the next one, and why was I going to deprive him of the opportunity to train and grow stronger?

Speaker 3: 38:18

I love that kind silent present.

Speaker 2: 38:20

I just rub it down so that I can tape it up on my mirror or something I'm going to practice that Also write down, smile and walk away, because it's our own need to be involved and solve it, because, of course, we're older, we're educated, we've had life experience, we have connections, network. We can solve it, like the time this plane got canceled. They canceled his plane coming home from college and I was like, oh my gosh, and then I was about to give a talk, or in the middle of giving a talk, on this book I couldn't. So I had to trust that my kid could handle it. And you know what? He figured it out. He figured out how to get rebooked and he got a travel voucher for the inconvenience. And I would have deprived him of learning those lessons if I had swooped in and solved it.

Speaker 1: 39:03

And I would say, the thing I struggle with the most is I can say you can do it yourself, smile and walk away, but I have to hold myself back from nagging. Did you do it? Did you do it?

Speaker 2: 39:19

I really that's my hardest part, okay. So let me tell you, I was giving a talk somewhere three months ago and packed auditorium, mostly adults. I give them how to raise an adult, parenting talk. I take questions and this mom is sitting about 20 rows back and she says well, in our house we have this situation where my son really needs to finish some applications. And then she goes like this she looks all the way down the row, like three people down the row, turns out her son is sitting. He won't start. I keep nagging him, I keep telling him, I keep reminding him because they have to get done. Do you have any advice for me? And I said is that your son? And she said yes. And I said are you collectively willing for me to have this conversation with you in front of all these people? And the son was like this and the mom said yes.

Speaker 2: 40:00

I said all right, mom, this is your son's application. Whether he does it or not is up to him. It's a reflection of him. If he wants to do this, he will. If he doesn't want to, he won't. You can say to him hey, kid, don't forget this deadline. If you need me I'll help, but this is yours. You've got it right. Say that once. Let him know that you are there to provide help. He knows that. You do not need to say it again, let alone 10 times. The more you nag, the more it makes him feel. My mother doesn't think I know how to manage my life or that I care about my life. Okay, so back off and trust that it'll either get done or it won't. But it's his life. And then I said to the son, how'd I do? I think he gave me a thumbs up.

Speaker 2: 40:43

You know it's hard because we don't want him to fail to apply to college or fail to apply for that job. But the more we nag and do it, the more we're saying I have to handle your life for you because you're incapable. Sometimes they need the consequences of well, you didn't apply. And then you don't rib them, you don't say if only you'd listened to me, you would have Right. You just it's not your life. That's the thing you have to get out of like. I need this outcome, I need him to apply, I need him to pass this. Why Right, you have your life, he has his. You can say hey, you got to graduate from high school. When you graduate from high school, I expect you to go to college or the workplace. Those are my rules. But how you get there is up to you, because it's your life, not mine.

Speaker 1: 41:25

Takes a lot of strength, a lot of strength, but I get it. You talk about the importance of practicing gratitude, but we're in a culture that's constantly telling us to seek more Lord knows. Social media is just everyone wants to be the perfect everything. How can we balance appreciation for what we have without falling into the trap of complacency?

Speaker 2: 41:46

Well, I don't see a lot of complacency around me. I'm in Palo Alto. It's a highly stressed out, hardworking place and it has its downsides, but complacency isn't one of them. I'm not sure that a gratitude practice leads to complacency. Gratitude, I think, helps you appreciate what you have so that you realize it's not all bad right. You appreciate what you have so that you realize it's not all bad right.

Speaker 2: 42:09

Gratitude is a great thing to practice. When you're feeling really sad, scared, angry, things have gone wrong, it's great to pause and say you know what? Let me just rebalance by saying here's what I can be grateful for, and small, the more minute, the more specific, the better. Not my health, my life, but like I had a great breakfast today because my partner went to the store and there were things for me to cook. You know I'm here in clothes that I, that I like they're ironed, like they're clean. I'm grateful that my mother is a gardener and sharing this beautiful garden. I'm grateful, you know, you're really specific. I think gratitude helps us cope and then the stuff that we're afraid of or worried about doesn't seem quite as insurmountable. So I don't think complacency is the opposite of gratitude.

Speaker 1: 42:50

In your book how to Raise an Adult, you outline four types of parenting authoritative, permissive, indulgent, neglectful, authoritarian right. How does that change as a parent to a young adult?

Speaker 2: 43:02

It doesn't. Nobody wants to be neglectful, so take that off the table. Nobody should be an authoritarian. That's the my way or the highway, my house, my rules. It's rule-based, with no hair and concern or compassion. Nobody should be doing that. Indulgent, permissive is like the best friend, like I'll handle everything, it's all good, you know no rules and just total, feel total, like touchy, feely, whatever you want, kid. The sweet spot we're supposed to be aiming for and should stick with is rules and expectations, but also high degree of care and concern. That's authoritative, okay. We should have rules and expectations, how you teach them, how life work.

Speaker 2: 43:42

Pick up your clothes, do these dishes contribute, pitch in, come home at a certain time right Consequences if they don't do those things, but a high degree of emotional relating. How are you Good to see you? I love you. You know how's that guitar you're always playing. I know I'm always nagging you on your science test, but you know what it's yours to figure out. I want you to do what you love that guitar you play. It brings me joy when I hear it, the music wafting through the house, and I want you to know that. I hope you have enough time to play that guitar because you're pretty good at it. Right, it's showing up and seeing them, treating them with unconditional love. Not love when they get A's, but love because they breathe. That's the authoritative parenting style. Never ends. Love it, I love it.

Speaker 3: 44:26

Don't you love that, erica? Style never ends. Love it, I love it. Don't you love that, erica? Hey, darren, I'm thinking that, though we're talking some about kids who grade, that even in adulthood, it's the same approach the emotional support, the recognizing the achievements, the successes and noticing them, I think is really important. I mean, I guess you asked which you know when does it segue?

Speaker 2: 44:45

And I said it never does. I think I'm wrong about that. I will amend that. And you asked which you know? When does it segue? And I said it never does. I think I'm wrong about that. I will amend that and say, look, you should only ever be an authoritative parent none of the other three types. But once they become full fledged adults, you're more of a loving coach who's on the sidelines to applaud the director, who sits in the audience and watches as their life unfolds. A director doesn't get up in the middle of a play or a musical and tell them they did it wrong, you know, or fix it when it went wrong. They just say, look, let's let it play out. Like, be there and watch, enjoy, show up with love. Every time you step back, it makes room for your kid to step forward.

Speaker 3: 45:25

I heard it said that we're supposed to be consultant in adulthood? Yeah, and a lot of our listeners are parents of adult kids. And what is, what is a consultant? Do rates to be asked? Nice.

Speaker 2: 45:36

Yeah, let me. Let me tell you this With my daughter. I'm a fixer. She's 22. I'm the sort of parent when she called during the pandemic living off campus Mom, I've got a paper due, I don't have my internet hooked up, my printer doesn't work and I can't reach my landlord. I got to register my scooter in the state I now live in and I was like, oh my gosh, avery, don't register the scooter. She's like mom, I'm not actually asking, I just want you to, I just want to place an event and I'm thinking like, how could you not ask Other people, ask me for advice? I wrote books Like I've been an authority in so many ways and what I've learned now is when my kid vents to say compassionate things, that sounds hard. I'm so sorry you're dealing with that, are you OK? I love you Do?

Speaker 2: 46:24

you ever say is there anything I can do? Do you need any? Never, pause is essential. And then, with a smile in my tone of voice, I say maybe do you just want to vent or do you need ideas. I'm here for whatever it is you need.

Speaker 2: 46:36

In the olden days I would say do you want to vent or do you want ideas? People like advocating for the ideas, like, do you want ideas? And I've learned that my tone of voice I have to regulate myself, which is why the pause after the compassion, and maybe even pause so long that she says something else. And then, when it's my turn next, I'll say you know what? I have some thoughts, happy to share them. If you want, you let me know. Like I am dying to share my thoughts, of course.

Speaker 2: 47:00

But here's what's happened over the couple of years I've been practicing this. Now, when I it used to be, she's like nope, I'm good, mom, thanks Right. She did not want my ideas, probably because I've stuffed my ideas down her throat all her life. Now, when I say, do you want to just vent or do you want some ideas, she's like oh, mom, I want all your ideas. This is my example of I have backed myself sufficiently away such that my daughter does not feel like I'm trying to lead her life or that I don't trust that she can. So now she can come forward. In pulling a little bit back, I have drawn my daughter closer and I have hit this sweet spot with this kid finally that I wouldn't trade for anything.

Speaker 1: 47:41

Lucky, lucky, I shouldn't say lucky you. You've worked hard at it.

Speaker 2: 47:44

We've worked at it and she's been great. That's exactly right. I've tried to learn and grow, for sure, yeah.

Speaker 1: 47:48

And I think we're all learning and grow. That's what this whole podcast is about. But before we wrap up, julie, at the end of every episode we always ask our guests to leave our listeners with one or two pieces of advice that we want them to take away. It can be something you've said before when they press done on the podcast what do you want them to really hear from you?

Speaker 2: 48:14

I want you to hear that I'm rooting for you, that we are all a work in progress and, as much as I am an expert, I have to work on some of my parenting stuff almost every day and I believe in you. You can do the work. Figure out why you're so anxious about your kid's outcomes. Figure out why you're so worried about other kid's outcomes. Figure out why you're so worried about other people's judgment. Your kid wants you to do the work, the therapy, the working your stuff out, so that they have a healthy parent who's got their act together and can be that wonderful consultant or coach in their lives. So it takes work, but you're capable of the work and I know it because I'm doing the work too.

Speaker 1: 48:48

Thank you so much, Erica. Do you have anything else to add at the end?

Speaker 3: 48:50

here. I guess my take home from a lot of what I read in your books and what I've heard you say is that over-helping causes harm. It leaves the kids without the skills and the strengths to take care of themselves, and I think that's a good lesson for all of us. Erica.

Speaker 2: 49:05

I appreciate that I like to say overhelping, undermines.

Speaker 1: 49:15

You know, I think that helps people, overhelp, undermines. I love all your little words and terminologies, all of it. Thank you, appreciate it. We really appreciate your taking the time to chat with us today. My pleasure, julie, it's been great. Erica, thank you for coming in and joining me. I know it was your first time. It's hard to jump in like this, but you did such a great job and I really, really appreciate it. Thank you.

Speaker 3: 49:32

I appreciate being able to be with you and to meet you, Julie. It's been a real honor.

Speaker 2: 49:37

My thanks to you both and to everyone who listened to us. I hope you got something you can take with you. It's great no-transcript.

Speaker 1: 50:14

how to start exercising again, chat, GPT for seniors and lots of other great stuff. I think it's funny and informative. I loved, loved their recent Jimmy Buffett tribute Also. This is kind of odd, but as a woman, I loved hearing what the old Codgers were chatting about. So visit their website at campcodgercom or, of course, listen to an episode wherever you find your favorite podcasts. So, Erica, do you have a favorite you might want to share?

Speaker 3: 50:42

Well, Denise, I seem to be in the car a lot and that's my best time to listen to podcasts. I've been listening lately to a lot of retirement podcasts because I think listening to what people do with their own lives helps with our balance of being less involved with our kids' lives. It gives me ideas of what I might want to do and it also tells me clearly what I don't want to do. The Retirement Wisdom podcast, hosted by Joe Casey, is the one that I've been following. Retirement.

Speaker 1: 51:10

Wisdom with Joe Casey. All right, I'm going to tune into that one, because I love listening to stuff like that. Well, thanks again to Erica Gardner-Gray for joining me today and, as I always say, please follow us on social media and send us your ideas for episodes at BiteYourTonguePodcastcom. Thank you again to Connie Goren-Fisher, our audio engineer, who continues to work her magic. And, of course, thank you to you, our listeners. We certainly would not keep going without you. We hope you enjoyed Julie as much as Erica and I did Enjoy 2024. Make it your best yet, but remember, sometimes you may just have to bite your tongue.