Empowering Voices Against the Silence of Abuse

Today we speak with Karen Denison Clark as she courageously recounts her journey from being a young tennis star victimized by her coach, to becoming a fearless advocate against sexual abuse.

Her narrative, shared through powerful media outlets, including The New York Times, serves not only as a beacon of hope for survivors but also as a call to action for creating environments where victims feel safe to voice their experiences.

By establishing a foundation of trust and openness, parents can create a safe space for their children to express their feelings and experiences, should they choose to do so.  Highlights:

• Why it is not too late to talk to your adult children now
• The impact of repressed memories and the journey to recovery 
• Encouraging open communication about uncomfortable topics 
• Tips for parents on initiating conversations with adult children 
• Advocating for awareness and change regarding sexual abuse policies 
• The importance of believing survivors and nurturing their voices 
• Fostering a supportive environment for future generations
• The surprising rules at Colleges and Universities that still allow relationships between coaches, professors and other people in positions of leadership with students.  Read Karen's OP-ED here. 

Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
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Chapters

• 0:02 Fostering Conversations on Sexual Abuse
• 6:40 Advocating Against Sexual Abuse Through Storytelling
• 15:11 Unveiling Repressed Trauma
• 24:27 [Ad] Deepcozy Nasal Irrigator
• 25:05 (Cont.) Unveiling Repressed Trauma
• 29:50 Initiating Conversations on Sexual Abuse
• 35:48 Overcoming Silence on Assault and Advocacy
• 51:18 Empowering Conversations on Abuse Awareness

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:02

Okay. So, connie, this is Kirsten and I doing the beginning. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Bite your Tongue, the podcast. I'm Denise and, as always, I'm joined by my fabulous co-host, kirsten Heckendorf. There she is waving Hi, kirsten. Good morning, happy New Year.

Speaker 1: 0:22

Before we dive into today's episode, we want to share something that was sort of interesting. Over the past month, we've received more messages from listeners than we ever have before, and I think it's because in the episode notes there's a little call to action that says send us a text. And we do love hearing from you, but you have to know that this platform Send Us a Text doesn't let us know who's sending these texts, so we can't reply. We love to get them, we love to hear what you're thinking, but we can't reply to you. We can respond if you reach out through our website or email, and you can email us at BiteYourTonguePodcast at gmailcom, and when you use that channel or our website, biteyourtonguepodcastcom, we'll get back to you as quickly as we can. Now let's jump into today's episode. Kirsten, why don't you get us started?

Speaker 3: 1:10

Great, and thank you, Denise, and happy new year to you as well. Today's topic hits really close to home for me both friends who have been victims, as well as friends of my daughter's during college specifically and these are crucial conversations we need to learn how to have with our adult children so that they do feel comfortable talking to us, and I think it's one that's unfortunately often kept in the shadows. So today we're talking about sexual abuse and how it can impact our relationships with our adult children. According to RAINN, which is the Rape, Abuse and Incest National Network, every 68 seconds an American is sexually assaulted. One in six women and one in 26 men will experience an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime.

Speaker 3: 1:59

Today's episode will shed light on how to have these difficult conversations that surround sexual abuse and assault. Today we're joined by Karen Dennison-Clark, a woman whose journey embodies courage and advocacy. She's here to help parents of adult children understand the profound impact of sexual abuse and how to foster conversations with our children about this sensitive topic. So she's going to be sharing a really deeply personal story, and one that she repressed for many, many, many years before finally speaking out. Her experience has shaped her life and her relationships, but she's now using it as a catalyst for change, especially with survivors of abuse by trusted adults.

Speaker 1: 2:39

This is kind of amazing, kirsten. I think that statistic by RAINN, the Rape Abuse and Incest Network, every 68 seconds an American is sexually assaulted. What the heck is going on. So I'm really glad we're talking about it. Before we introduce Karen, though, I want to tell you just a little more about her and why this episode is so important.

Speaker 1: 3:03

In early December of this year, karen was featured in a major New York Times story written by Matt Fetterman, and the story was titled Two Women Lived with the Secret of an Assault by the Same Tennis Coach. Then they Found Each Other. Everyone should read this and we'll. Alarming are the hundreds of comments by readers. It's hard to believe the number of women that commented on this story, that talked about suffering quietly being sexually assaulted not only by coaches, but teachers, camp counselors, family members and friends. I never understood how they hold it in. Don't share it with their families, with anyone, and don't seek support. They say it's their word against the perpetrator. The reaction to this one article I'm going to say that again, connie the reaction to this in just this one article is remarkable, and I really hope that this episode helps all of us to learn how to bring this up with our adult children and help change the landscape for our grandchildren and our future generations. It's been going on way too long.

Speaker 1: 4:13

All right, now a little bit about the stats, about Karen. She was born in Washington. She grew up as a local tennis star before literally joining the national circuit at age 14. At 15, she was at a tennis camp and a New Zealand coach or a coach from New Zealand and I'm just going to say his name, lou Girard, g-e-r-r-a-r-d. A former 11th ranked player in the world, offered to coach her and he was a fabulous coach and took her game to the next level, earning her a ranking and setting her on the path to play professionally level earning her a ranking and setting her on the path to play professionally. However, at the age of 16, he sexually assaulted her, altering her life forever.

Speaker 1: 4:52

Her tennis career as she knew it was over. She's now an advocate for the safeguarding of women through speaking, writing podcasts and lobbying for legislative change. A mother of three and grandmother of three will learn why she is speaking out now and how we, as parents, can create a supportive environment for our I'm gonna say that again, connie A mother of three and grandmother of three, ugh one more time. A mother of three and grandmother of three will learn why she is speaking out now and how we as parents can create a supportive environment for our adult children and grandchildren. It's really shocking, kirsten, I'm so glad to do this episode. It's a little out of our normal recordings, but I think it's important.

Speaker 3: 5:40

I don't know that. I think it's so abnormal. We talk a lot about other things that are not something that you and I have necessarily experienced, but that I do think other parents have experienced, and I also wonder if there isn't some silence that takes place amongst those parents as well. They also don't feel comfortable saying, yeah, my kid was sexually assaulted and it's not our story to tell.

Speaker 3: 6:07

It's our kid's story to tell, so it's so complicated, but I do think it fits with what we talk about with adult children and how we communicate with them, absolutely.

Speaker 1: 6:20

Okay, kirsten, let's stop here, because then when Karen comes on, okay, kirsten, let's stop here, because then, when Karen comes on, you can do the welcome. Karen, does that make sense? Yep, okay, so let me pause the recording Shoot. Sorry, I got us on too soon. Let's see.

Speaker 3: 6:35

Pause. Welcome, Karen. You have so bravely shared your story with the media, including the Denver Post and the New York Times, with one article alongside tennis legend Pam Shriver. Your latest story that just ran in December shares a compelling journey that you shared with another athlete also abused by the same coach.

Speaker 1: 6:57

Okay, wait a second. We've got to stop that. Remember, I mentioned that above, so you were going to take that part out.

Speaker 3: 7:03

Your story just ran in December. Yeah, you were just going to jump right into jump.

Speaker 1: 7:06

It was the other part I was going to take out. Yeah, yeah, Okay. So I'm just going to take that out. Connie, we're going to start again. Just let say you're shared your story with the media period Cause I talked above, I gave the title of that article with the gal and everything.

Speaker 3: 7:23

I'll send you my well you can go on the doc anytime and see what we changed. Yeah Well, and I just downloaded it because otherwise it screws me up on the yeah, okay, sorry, okay.

Speaker 3: 7:29

Okay, I'm sorry. Okay, Welcome Karen. You have bravely shared your story with the media, including the Denver Post and the New York Times. Your story is so compelling and your advocacy is inspiring. We're so grateful to and to have you here to share your journey and those insights. We also want to know how you shared this with your own children and how your work impacts your grandchildren.

Speaker 1: 7:53

No, now you have to start with the question. You do want me to go to the question? Yeah, you go right to the question yeah, okay, connie, here we go.

Speaker 3: 8:03

Can you tell us what drives your passion for sharing your story so publicly Walk us through your journey a little bit and why you think it's so critical to bring these issues to the forefront?

Speaker 2: 8:13

Well, thank you so much for having me. This is definitely a passion of mine. When something like this has happened in your life and you've kept it hidden for 50 years, it is so healing to get your word out. My reason for this is I don't want it to happen to anybody else. I want to deter the behavior. I want women to speak up and feel like they can, because I think I was raised in the say nothing generation and I want, I want that to change. I know how healing it's been for me and I want other women to be able to feel that. And I think that a big thing is is our grandchildren, it's the next generation, like it's too late for us? Uh, even for our own. Most of our children are millennials, it's you know, they've probably already been assaulted. If they were going to get assaulted, um, so we can help them by talking to them. But it's really about our grandchildren and the next generation, because I believe that's where the change can be made.

Speaker 1: 9:31

So, karen, walk us through your story. I know that, particularly in the most recent article in the Denver Post, there was a lot of it, but I think hearing it firsthand from you for our listeners would be a great help before we jump into some of the questions we have for you.

Speaker 2: 9:46

Yeah, so I was born and raised in Washington DC, the mid-Atlantic region for tennis in our country, and I was a pretty talented tennis player junior and I went to a camp. I was already really highly ranked in the region and I go to this camp in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia when I was 15 years old and it's a Dennis Vandermeer camp, who was really a well-known coach. I met Lou Gerard there at 15. And I can look back now and say I think the grooming started that week. He offered to I had taken a train down to Sweetbriar College, which was where the camp was, and he offered to drive me home from camp. He was taking another camper, a male camper, so back to Baltimore where he was from, and um, but he he got to meet my mom, so my mom didn't have to take me to, you know, pick me up at the training station. She was like this is all great and started working with him. You know he was saying I want to work with your daughter. She has such great potential. I started working with him right away. My mother loved him. He was from New Zealand, he was this world-ranked player, so he had the accent and he was as charming as they come, which most perpetrators are really charming, and I started working with him right away. He took my game to the next level that you know, fall he.

Speaker 2: 11:33

I had a I'm six of seven children. I had an older sister. My oldest sister was married with two kids. At the time she lived in Charlottesville, virginia, and Lou was giving an adult clinic at the Boar's Head Inn in Charlottesville and that's where the abuse took place. But he was just so good at saying, hey, I can help you do this and come down to Charlottesville. And my mom drove me down. I didn't even have my license yet and stayed with my sister and the Friday night he said to come, come after the adult clinic and we'll work. You know, I'll train with you. We'll have a lesson and I remember the lesson being shorter than I thought it would be Like I was. It was always an hour. And I remember the lesson being shorter than I thought it would be, like I was. It was always an hour and I know it was. It felt like 30 minutes, but maybe it was 45.

Speaker 2: 12:32

And then he said he needed to um go to the tavern to socialize a bit with the adult campers from that weekend. And we go and he's like I'll take you back to your sisters. After that we go to this tavern. I can remember a low coffee table and all these, you know, adult tennis players I'm 15 at the time losing his mid thirties, and he puts this small glass with a brown drink in front of me and I'd never had a mixed drink before but I knew it was like bourbon whiskey, something like that. Um, I drink it. I don't remember ever getting another drink. And the next thing I remember is I'm still at the tavern and there's no one there. Everyone's gone.

Speaker 2: 13:24

Lou then says he needs to run by his room to get something before he takes me to my sister's and I can remember him holding me up like kind of behind my arm at my elbow and I'm having trouble walking and I can remember these white walls and this green rug and I'm going down the hallway and the next thing I remember I am flopped back on a bed, my tennis skirt is at my knees and he's wiping my stomach with Kleenex and he's wiping my stomach with Kleenex. I remember going home and not a word was said in the car. I can remember that it was fall, so there were a lot of leaves and he's helping me get to my sister's house and walking up the walkway and I'm shuffling through leaves, I go inside and I remember when I woke up the next morning thinking I can never tell anyone what happened, and I was just frozen in fear but I went on.

Speaker 1: 14:41

I was going to you, continued to train with him.

Speaker 2: 14:43

I did and nothing was ever said. Nothing, so it was I mean, he never tried it again which, when I finally got into therapy, she was like that's pretty unusual, because usually that's kind of the beginning of more abuse. And so somehow I let him know this was never going to happen. But anyway, I go on. I continue training with him. Nothing is ever said.

Speaker 2: 15:11

The following summer I have the best summer of my life. I ranked in the top 20. In the end of the summer, lou said to me and I was top 20, and he said next year when you're in the 18s, you're going to be in the top 10. Right, and this little voice went off in my head no, that's not going to happen. And I didn't understand what was happening to me and like, why was I thinking that? Why didn't I trust him? And you know, was it a few weeks or maybe a month, but I know that fall, all of a sudden I could not hold on to a tennis racket and my hands, literally like I could see them shaking and I didn't. I had no idea what was happening to me. With hindsight now I can look back and say I think that was my body saying you got to get out of there. I think that was my body saying you got to get out of there.

Speaker 2: 16:22

And so my tendons started falling apart and I, I mean, I kept saying to Lou what's wrong, what's happening to me. And he was a jerk about it. I'm saying I mean he just wasn't helpful. He was just I don't know, I don't know, I don't know. Well, he certainly knew, but he didn't want to say anything. My mother was saying you know what's happened, karen, what's wrong, what's wrong, what's wrong. And I just I couldn't tell her. And so to this day I can feel it today, lying to my mother and feeling horrible about it. And I looked, I had to get her off my back and I just said, mom, I just think I don't like tennis anymore. And then she was like oh, you know, darling well, of course you don't need to play tennis. And you know I'm thinking that was the biggest lie I've ever told. And that's I. You know, I love the game. I love the game today.

Speaker 1: 17:27

And, but I didn't know what else to do. So, yeah, go ahead. I just want to know. So, how many years late? So you repress this, you go through college, you get married, you have your own children, and when does this? Because I want to talk a little about of understanding this whole repression and memory, because, for those of us that haven't gratefully been exposed, you'll hear stories where someone will pop up 20 years later and say, oh, when I was in fourth grade or when I was four years old, and you think to yourself, why are you just talking about it now? So what was your journey to finally come to terms with this? I mean, you remembered it, maybe, but you repressed it. Is that right, or how does it work?

Speaker 3: 18:03

I want to add something to that as well. Why did you feel that you couldn't tell anybody what if you remember what was going on in your head? Because I wonder if that also plays a role in allowing your psyche to repress it.

Speaker 2: 18:20

Yeah, um, I wouldn't. The fear, the fear of not being believed, I mean that. I think that's the crux of why I kept it silent and that was proven just this year in matt butter's article. Lou denied he knew me, he denied he'd ever even met me. So what do you think he would have done when I was 15, 16? Right, and I knew I had to have known that. Right, but yeah, I just I had. I will have to say I had five or six years after this happened where I to myself I called them my lost years. I did not have a great college experience. I went to the University of Maryland. I got the first full scholarship for a woman. There I played number one and I was barely functioning. And at that time in the seventies, I needed to go to Florida, california or Texas to a good tennis school. Maryland is a good tennis school now you know it was very mediocre in the 70s so it all looked good on paper full scholarship, number one player, blah, blah, blah.

Speaker 2: 19:44

I was. I didn't even, I can't even describe um. I was just putting one foot in front of the other. I did not have a good experience, even though you know you'd look at my record and go that was pretty decent. I was like struggling to get through each match. I would say about five years after and I'm actually at the end of college and I start, I feel like I started coming out of it, but I don't even I can't even explain to you today how and why that happened. Um, but I got, I started to get better mentally, I guess, and you know, I eventually meet my husband, I marry, I have children, like Denise just said, and I think something happens in everyone's lives who's experienced a trauma like that that triggers them and so an event happens.

Speaker 2: 20:40

I mean Pam Shriver when she came out with her story about her inappropriate relationship with her coach, who which is why the article I was in that article with Pam is because our coaches were really good friends, we both. She grew up in Baltimore, I grew up in Washington DC. I was four years older, I was the best player in the area and she looked up to me at the time and she says in 2020, both her mother died and Don Candy, her coach, had died, and she said that was her trigger. She's in the pandemic, she has all this time to think about her life and she gets into therapy. For me it was 2006. I had just started coaching at University of Denver, du that year, and I'm coaching with this woman, amy Jensen, and in just passing conversation she'd graduated from Berkeley and she had won the NCAAs and doubles three years that she was there. And it just comes up in this conversation that actually her freshman year, she played at Wake Forest and she said I was recruited. She's Australian and a very funny woman.

Speaker 2: 22:05

And she said I was recruited by this pervert from New Zealand who then got fired a couple of years later for an inappropriate relationship with a player, a couple of years later for an inappropriate relationship with a player. And I'm looking at her like I'm looking at you right now, and there is no change in my expression. And I knew exactly who that pervert from New Zealand was. I knew he had an enormously successful career at Wake Forest. I knew all that but I could. I was obviously being. That was my trigger, but I couldn't deal with it right then. And I go home. I know exactly where I was, in my house, and I wish I could explain how I cried for close to an hour. I couldn't sit down. I was pacing but I was buckled over at my waist and everything is flooding back and I've never cried like that in my life. I will never cry like that again. I think the biggest thing that day was oh my God, it wasn't just me.

Speaker 2: 23:19

Because I think I thought I was the only one, as Matt Futterman, you know, at times says Karen, you probably won his first either. You know so. But that was the big revelation that it wasn't just me. And then we're talking 26 years from the time he assaulted me to the time he got fired from Wake Forest, which was 99. And this is 2006. And I'm thinking how many others were there in those 26 years. But I will say, even though that triggered me, I still wasn't ready yet. And I think I wasn't ready because I had high school students at home. I had one who was a freshman in college and two in high school. And you're just busy in your life, and I just think I didn't have the space yet.

Speaker 2: 24:14

I told my husband that night, but I didn't give him a lot of the details. He knew Lou. I mean, lou was very well known in the mid-Atlantic area and my husband, raul, was a tennis player as well and had coached with him. But I just wasn't ready to give the whole story so fast forward nine years and I don't know what then. But I was definitely more. It was definitely more in my life, it was in my mind, even though I had only told Rao, but I also had reached out to a therapist I had used years ago. She told me to write him a letter, not send it, and just tell him everything I think of him. So I did that and I think I'm healed, which was not true.

Speaker 2: 25:36

But in 2015, and this is nine years later, I don't know what brought it out then. It was the year my oldest daughter got married and I'm like, was there something with that? I don't know, but I just came to my husband and said, I think I need to go to therapy, I think I just need to sit down with somebody and just talk about this. And then, so that was, that was almost 10 years, nine, nine and a half years ago and, um, that was the beginning of the journey that I'm on today, and I spent several years in therapy, learned so much, because there's so much in my life that was affected by that day that I had no idea.

Speaker 2: 26:27

Like, that day was not that evening, was not just this one thing that happened, it would. It affected my whole life and I and I'm in therapy and I'm discovering, oh my God, that's why I mean I'm, you know, I can. I have radar, definitely for creepy men. I have radar, definitely for creepy men. I'm very triggered or sensitive to if I feel like somebody's taking advantage of me and that I learned in therapy all along the way Like, oh, that's why I didn't like that person to do that to me and it had nothing to do with abuse or sex or anything, but it was. I was taken advantage of and I'm really sensitive to that.

Speaker 1: 27:18

So I want to ask a couple of things or say a couple of things. One is I want to talk about what that journey is now, the reason we're having this podcast and what we hope our listeners can do and understand to make a change in this. But the other thing I want to bring up that we haven't mentioned was the op-ed you wrote in the Denver Post, and my husband, myself anyone I've shared this with is shocked that CU and DU so University of Colorado, university of Denver, you're in that area both do not prohibit relationships between coaches, professors, whoever it might be, and their students or and their teammates or whatever they. From what I read and you sent to me, they have to report it, but the relationship can still go on. That seems so out of whack to me, based on everything that's going on with this whole Me Too and people in power. I mean, how can you be a player and have a relationship with a coach? How can you be a student and be sleeping with your professor and have that be okay?

Speaker 2: 28:27

Well, first off, it's not okay. We know that. Um, obviously, that's why I write the op-ed. I was as shocked as anybody that this actually, and this was, I wrote it in 2024, that it was actually 2024. And this is really, you know, the case. So I wrote this op-ed and CSU, I will say, colorado State, prohibits this and every year you have if you're a professor, a coach, a supervisor, if somebody you have to sign a document every year Because that reminds you that this is not allowed at our school.

Speaker 2: 29:35

No-transcript. Okay, do you know at all other colleges across the US what the norm is? Well, I think it's changing. I think it is moving to prohibiting um, but I think there's also many schools that just these policies are in place and they just leave them alone. I, I think originally the policies were that these, these are consenting adults, blah, blah, blah. But you know you, so you can have a relationship with your coach or professor, but you're, you're legally can't drink in college. I mean, that's ridiculous. And so I think they're going to, I'm going to guess that they're gonna slowly change these policies, but they just don't want anybody to know and make a big deal out of it. Um, but I certainly will. I mean, I'm not done yet with du and um, yeah, I just think there's a lot of things that they just look the other way.

Speaker 1: 30:38

So, as you said earlier, you weren't the first, and all of us have. Well, Kirsten has adult daughters. Well, even men we were quoting those statistics One in what was it? Six women every 68 seconds and one in 28 men or something. So even young boys are being assaulted. Is there a way we can bring this up to our adult kids and talk about it? So, number one, they're aware. Or, if they want to talk to us. Or two, if they're having children, how they approach their grandchildren. What are the changes that we need to see made and how we can help?

Speaker 2: 31:25

So with our own adult children. We've kind of already raised them in. However, we raised them, but that doesn't mean we can't now say but you, as either a parent or you're maybe eventually going to be a parent, this is a critical subject and it all goes down to communication. I mean pretty much. I think everything in life goes down to communication. I mean, we chose to bring children into this world and we did not do this just to house them and feed them. I mean, we're, you know we're. Our responsibility as a parent is to mentor our children and if we didn't mentor them very well growing up, it's not too late, like we have to. And it's hard communication and a dip. This is a difficult subject to talk about.

Speaker 2: 32:17

But I think what you were doing here and what I'm doing is opening up that jars to talk about that, because, you know, one of the things I can say is well, I saw this, you know, listen to this podcast and you know, let me, you know, let me tell you what I learned, and it's having these conversations with your children. And then you know, that's what I want to work on is how we then get the next generation educated, comfortable with speaking up and in an age appropriate way. I mean I was like by middle school, that's. That's when we got to get these kids at middle school. And you know, I, I totally agree, that's when. I mean I think between the ages of 13 and 15 are pretty common ages for girls to be assaulted. But you know, there's just horrific stories of five and six year olds getting assaulted.

Speaker 1: 33:31

Right, and that's the other thing. So I think, Karen both of your parents passed.

Speaker 1: 33:34

They never knew. I have, since you started talking about this to me, I've spoken to a few other friends that then have shared their journey. I had known something happened but they didn't really open up about the whole thing. All of their parents passed. They never shared it. Do you think it would have helped if you would have talked to your mother about it? Or what are your feelings about never sharing this with your mother? Do you think you know, sometimes as a young adult, you don't want to share the bad things with your parents because you don't want to make them sad. You don't want to make them feel guilty, like maybe she would have thought. Why wasn't I there for Karen? Why didn't I see this? What are some of the reasons you think you don't even feel like you want to tell your parents?

Speaker 2: 34:15

Well, it's interesting because my mother, when I got into therapy in 2015, was in her early 90s and I so badly wanted to tell her, and my therapist said, mm-mm, really. Well, she was beginning to have short-term memory loss and one of the things she did was um, if you tell her something, she would then say oh, so you know, okay, so dennison and joel are getting married, you know. And then, like 10 minutes later, she's good, you told me dennison and joel are getting married, right, right. And so she would. And so I my fear was she would say did you tell me that Lou Girard assaulted you? And then, five minutes later, she'd say did you?

Speaker 2: 35:11

Yeah, yeah yeah, so I get it, but I'm oh, I wanted to tell her so badly because I think it would connect a lot of dots for her, but I didn't. And I, but what do I think?

Speaker 1: 35:30

Yeah, like, like today. Should we talk to our adult? I mean, after this conversation, is it worth? I wanted an adult daughter, an adult son saying you know, I had this conversation with Karen Clark, blah, blah blah. Here are the articles you should read these Did anything ever happen to you in your life? Because I was also talking to someone else that realized just recently, through therapy and everything, that there was all these assaults going on in her childhood street.

Speaker 2: 35:59

Yes, all these assaults going on in her childhood street. Yes, well, and I playing bridge one weekend up in the mountains, and you know there's four of us and I'm telling my story and someone else says she was raped by her roommate's boyfriend right after college. Then this other woman was like oh I'm, you know, I'm so sorry that happened to you, but you know, nothing had ever happened to me. Well, the next morning she can't wait to tell us that she gets in bed and realizes that there's only different levels of assault. So she was definitely assaulted and she said I've had two assaults, one was worse than the other, but I'm shocked that I just never thought it was an assault.

Speaker 2: 36:47

You know, I have a daughter, you know, because when I got in therapy, I went back to Rao and told him the whole story and one of the biggest questions he asked me, which goes back to the repression thing, was well, so we've been married 24 years when I first told him, but I didn't give him the details and so then it was probably 33 years later that I really gave him the whole story and one of his first questions was well, karen, like earlier in our marriage, like did you think about it and just not say anything?

Speaker 2: 37:26

And I was like no, I really had put it in that file cabinet, locked the file cabinet and thrown away the key. But I mean, definitely, there, you know, there's that book your body keeps score Score. The Body Keeps Score, your Body Keeps Score. And it was in me and I feel like it just needed to come out and it was. It was probably going to come out one way or another and Amy Jensen just helped that process, even though I wasn't ready when I was first triggered by it, ready when it I was first triggered by it. But one, I think, an easy way to ask you can add on has anything like this happened to you or anyone else, or anyone else you know? Because it's almost, I think, easier for some for one of our adult children to say, oh god, I have so many friends that this has happened to and and it's all. I want to get rid of all inappropriate behavior, because that's where it all begins.

Speaker 3: 38:25

I mean recognize it, though. You said something earlier about the degrees of what constitutes an assault, and so how do you teach your daughters and in turn, they teach other people what they're looking for, because it really can be some things that in you, yeah. How do you categorize this? How do you say that's assault?

Speaker 2: 38:52

well, I think if it's inappropriate, it's inappropriate, and it I. A lot of it goes back to sexual comments, because not all sexual comments turn into a sexual assault, but all sexual assaults start with sexual comments and I think we as a society, we, you know, the boys will be boys, it's just a joke. Those kinds of things. I'm hoping that my grandchildren's generation will say no, that's not funny and and kind of put put the shame where it needs to be, not on the. The women who you know laugh at all. I mean, you know one of the Wake Forest players who did speak. I was disappointed. A lot of the Wake Forest players did not want to speak about their own teammate that was assaulted.

Speaker 2: 39:53

Because I think and this goes to something else that we talked about I think as you age you're more open to talking about this stuff and I feel like the Wake Forest women are still in like their late 40s, early 50s, and they're not. They let's just throw out 60. Then you start looking back on this kind of stuff and realizing what may have happened that you just ignored, or I don't want this to happen. You know, to my grandchildren. I mean, that's huge. I have two granddaughters, they're seven and four. You know I have yet to tell them my story, but I will tell them my story when in an age, appropriate way, whenever I feel like they can absorb it.

Speaker 2: 40:50

But I also feel like I want to write. I mean, I have a website now and I'm writing blogs on that. But I want to now and I'm writing blogs on that, but I want to. I have in my head this like a handbook called Red Flags and just you know, as a way to educate it and have it in an age appropriate way.

Speaker 2: 41:13

You know, my daughter, after I told her, probably two months after I told her about my assault, after I told her, probably two months after I told her about my assault, she comes to me. She's late 20s then and she's crying and she said, mom, I've been assaulted and I was like what? And she says, well, I never really thought it was an assault because nothing happened was an assault because nothing happened. And she starts crying and she tells me this story, that long story. It was in college. It was, um, a day party drinking. A guy's giving her a ride back into town. Um, they get to a stop sign. He takes her ponytail and yanks her down to his crotch and says it's time now to give me a blow job. And she fought him. And she said I. And she's crying and crying and she's telling me how she fought him off, how they get to the next stop time. The car is moving and she jumps out of the car and she's crying and saying, mom, I never would have fought back like that if you weren't my mother.

Speaker 1: 42:27

Now this because you had shared your story, what?

Speaker 2: 42:30

no, at the time it happened she didn't know my story. But so one of the biggest questions of what my therapist had asked me was how did I teach my two daughters and a son? How did I teach my daughters when I hadn't shared my story, and what did I tell them about sexual assault and sexually inappropriate behavior? And I looked at her and went I don't know. But, as my daughter pointed out to me in her late twenties, I definitely let my daughters know you don't let anyone take?

Speaker 2: 43:13

advantage of you. I mean there was definitely the we'll come get you at any time. It was definitely. I was always said just blame it on your mother, you know. Just say I got you know. If you're ever in an uncomfortable position, say well, my mom wants me to, and make up anything, and there was always that. But I think somehow I let my girls know that inappropriate behavior by guys was not OK you know, karen, the whole red flag thing and everything.

Speaker 1: 43:48

I get all that. But I think the bigger issue truly and I don't know what your plans are for this or how it can be changed is the he said she said you know you never think you're going to be believed. The he said she said you know you never think you're going to be believed. I still remember I was nursing my son, so I think I watched every William Kennedy Smith was when TV was big, okay, and he had raped this woman on the beach.

Speaker 1: 44:10

It was very clear that he had raped this woman on the beach. Um, but it was a. He said. She said and you get into court and you're rarely proven that it happened. You know what I mean. The woman.

Speaker 2: 44:30

She's dragged through the mud in a way that nobody wants to talk about it or come forward. So that is true, and that is I mean particularly on college campuses today, particularly when there's drinking involved. It's always the woman's responsibility to prevent any of this from happening. Well, why is that? That's what I do believe could change.

Speaker 1: 44:53

I hope so a while.

Speaker 2: 45:05

but if we educate our young ones now, before this can happen, I do think that the tide can change. And let me tell you, we need men to help us through this. I think the me too movement was the beginning, and then it's kind of had good moments and then you think it's falling back and then you, oh, it's another good movement. Well, that's just how I think grassroots movements happen, and I think we're in, you know, the early stages of that. Do I want it to happen much quicker than it is? Yes, but wouldn't it be great if the she says were starting to be believed more? And I do think, compared to the William Kennedy Smith days? Well, but even Kavanaugh you know even Hill.

Speaker 1: 45:51

You know Justice, thomas and Anita Hill. I think about those boys, or that girl from Stanford that was basically, wasn't she like completely behind a building and completely out of it, and they still raped her three guys from some team and you know, I think they were from overseas.

Speaker 1: 46:12

But it's just, it's a hard battle. I commend you for what you're doing. I think bringing it up is so important. Commend you for what you're doing. I think bringing it up is so important. I just think we've got to encourage women to speak for speak up and also figure out how we can support them when they're speaking up.

Speaker 2: 46:27

Well, and if men start to be held accountable, then that that can also shift things. Look, I wouldn't be doing this if I didn't think, you know, there was a chance for change. I mean I'm not going to leave this earth without fighting for this to be changed. I will say, um, there, this is another point too. I do think, um, and I am a glasses half full kind of person.

Speaker 2: 46:59

But if you the comment section of my most recent article in the New York Times, there were many men who commented and they would have to be young fathers who say this terrifies me, that it could possibly happen to one of my daughters. So that's the guy. I want to talk. You know, I want to talk to those guys. Yeah, um, I, you know my own son-in-law that has these two daughters. I mean, you know he's the perfect example. My daughter says, even in her book club, this, this, this kind of stuff comes up more than you would think. So I think that's awesome and I think a lot of she says a lot of her friends who are raising boys are like we don't want you to be, the boys will be boys kind of kids, and so that I mean that's's very encouraging and I just think, if I just posted on um LinkedIn, instagram and Facebook my article just a few days ago, it took me. You know the holidays and whatever I decided I wanted to.

Speaker 2: 48:15

I wanted to make sure I put a caption underneath that was meaningful, and I've I've been blown up.

Speaker 1: 48:25

I mean I, we will.

Speaker 2: 48:26

We will share all of that, karen, on our episode notes and when we do Texas this morning by two friends of mine not close friends, but two friends in Denver said can we meet for coffee? One of them said I've had. She was a decent, a good junior tennis player and she said two of my coaches were abusers. The other woman I know she had a. She was raped at a young age.

Speaker 1: 48:54

Well, you are taking the cap off the bottle girl. Or letting the genie out I don't know how you say it, I never use the right things or letting the genie out.

Speaker 3: 49:00

I don't know how you say it, I never use the right things and and, and.

Speaker 1: 49:03

We really commend you, and I hope, if we do anything with this podcast, we inspire all of our listeners to help all of the women around them and men stronger and, and you know, take care of themselves. So we need to move on, and I want to ask you to leave our listeners with two takeaways that you think you want them to take away from this conversation, other than what I would like them to take away is. Here's a woman that has exposed so much about herself fighting to make a huge difference, and we really are grateful to you for that, karen. So thank you.

Speaker 2: 49:34

Well, thank you for having me. This is this is what it's about, though. Thank you for having me. This is what it's about, though. It's like using our voices because I feel like anyone that's been assaulted, but even if you weren't assaulted, I think we were not raised to have our voices be heard.

Speaker 2: 49:53

We were scared, and I think it's time. I think women have a lot of good things to say in every avenue, not just. You know this horrific situation, but I feel like nothing changes when things are hidden and to anybody that's out there listening, you know, nothing will change if you keep this hidden, but if you bring it out, it's so good for the person bringing it out, that's healing, but it's also good for everybody else and I think that's a huge piece of it. And then the second takeaway is that next generation, that's what we've got to focus on and they're our future, and I know that's a very cliche thing to say, but, um, if we can teach the next generation that their voices matter and that and that they can be believed, because I think that's um, you can speak up. But if you're not believed, then then you say, well, why did I ever speak up? So they have to be believed and not listen to your children and and and talk to them and communicate with them.

Speaker 1: 51:12

And Karen, if people want to find you, do you want to tell them your website? And I'm sure on their website there's some contact information, Cause my guess is listeners may want to share their story with you.

Speaker 2: 51:21

Absolutely. I? Um, it is a developing website. We're working on it, but it's Karen Dennison clarkcom. K A R E N D E N, one N in the middle. I S O N clarkcom and you can email me at Karen at Karen karendenisonclarkcom. I've got about three blogs up there. I'm going to be posting this podcast on there and I would love it for anybody. Don't hesitate to reach out to me, because you never know where it could lead and who I might know and what you can do together.

Speaker 1: 52:01

Right, karen, thank you so much for this. This was really great and I'm I don't know, I don't want to say honored is not the right word impressed by your honesty and how much you are exposing to make a difference. So it means a lot to all of us and to all of our daughters and grandchildren.

Speaker 2: 52:20

Yeah, it's for the future, and thank you so much for having me.

Speaker 3: 52:25

Thank you.

Speaker 1: 52:30

So that was quite an interesting episode, kind of out of what we usually do, but important to acknowledge that this is going on. It's a tough one.

Speaker 3: 52:38

She's climbing a very steep battle but I give her a lot of credit. Yeah, it's a tough subject but I think she's correct that communication is key and creating those safe spaces so that our girls, women and men who are assaulted, I think that they're more likely to speak up. I don't think we've created yet the right kind of environment. I love her the idea of doing a red flags book to sort of lay out what is assault. What does it look like? If you get that uncomfortable feeling, there's a reason for it. Those kinds of things would be super helpful. But anyway, that's.

Speaker 1: 53:26

Yeah, it was great. Yeah, it's a lot.

Speaker 3: 53:30

So you say now for those listeners. So take a deep breath here. Okay, For those listeners who may want to reach Karenenisonclarkcom K-A-R-E-N-D-E-N-I-S-O-N-C-L-A-R-Kcom, we will share her email in our episode notes as well. She would welcome your thoughts and any shared experiences. Yeah, I think that was powerful.

Speaker 1: 53:57

I think those shared experiences are key because that's the only way I think that she got all these emails after her Facebook and LinkedIn posts and stuff are going to. You know if she can build a community, even with some of the people that made the comments. I just want to quickly, before we close, touch base on the listener questions and we can't reply to those texts. As I said, so many of the messages, I was surprised it continues to touch base. Wait, I'm going to start again. Many of those messages were about estrangement. It just seems that we get this over and over again and we've explored this in depth Season 2, episode 41 with Carl Pillemer, and then season 3, episode 62 with Joshua Coleman. So if you were someone who wrote, I would start with that first, but hopefully we'll get to something more on that at some point.

Speaker 1: 54:42

The ones we've received someone estrangement from their oldest son and his wife. Another one was sibling jealousy we haven't really talked about that at all and the impact of an abusive father. That's a little bit different than the sexual abuse that we talked about today, but still that you know the mother possibly not supporting the child when she tells him or he or she tells him or whatever, but those are all good questions and things that will keep top of mind. Finally, we do want to thank, even if you just send us a text and tell us you're enjoying the podcast. We love it. The kind words make us very happy, and so your support truly keeps us going.

Speaker 3: 55:24

And, as we close, we also want to thank Connie Gorin-Fisher, our audio and production engineer, who, without we, couldn't sound great and look great To our listeners. We'd love to hear your thoughts and ideas. You can email us at biteyourtonguepodcast at gmailcom, and if you found any value in today's episode, please support us by visiting biteyourtonguepodcastcom and buying us a virtual cup of coffee. Don't forget to follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Thank you for tuning in and until next time, remember, bite your tongue.

Speaker 1: 55:57

Say remember to bite your tongue. Remember, don't forget to bite your tongue.

Speaker 3: 56:00

Okay, connie, to bite your tongue. Remember, don't forget to bite your tongue. Okay, connie, scratch that one. I'll do it again and, as always, thank you for tuning in and until next time, remember to bite your tongue.

Speaker 1: 56:12

Okay, wait one second, connie. We forgot to say that's a wrap at the end. I think you should say that. Just say it now. Say thank you, karen, that's a wrap, because you never really said thank you broadly. Okay, just say it now. Say thank you, karen, that's a wrap, because you never really said thank you broadly.

Speaker 3: 56:26

Okay, so if Connie can put that in, she will.

Speaker 1: 56:36

Okay. So, connie, here I go, and thank you so much, karen. Well, that's a wrap, let's see.