Bright Kids Who Couldn't Care Less: When to Get Involved

This is a very special episode for a couple of reasons. First, we’re thrilled to finally interview Dr. Ellen Braaten, the podcast's original co-host, about her incredible book, Bright Kids Who Couldn’t Care Less. It’s a great conversation. 

Second keep listening to find out big news about the podcast

But the conversation today is about rekindling your child’s motivation, and the tools she shares work wonders for any age group.

As parents of adult children, many of us wonder if our kids are truly living up to their potential—or if we’re just looking at it through our own expectations. That’s the heart of today’s conversation. 

Here are some highlights of today's episode:

🌟 "Parenting isn't over." Braaten reminds us that our role as parents continues even as our kids grow up. Braaten shares invaluable insights on understanding our kids' unique strengths and how to support them in finding their passions.

🤔 Are you worried about your adult child's lack of motivation? We discuss signs to look for and how to approach these sensitive conversations. 

💬 "Life is a puzzle, and we put pieces in the puzzle." Discover how to help your kids find their passion and purpose. 

🤔 Are you worried about your adult child’s lack of motivation? Braaten discusses the signs to look for and when to seek professional help. It's crucial to recognize the difference between typical struggles and deeper issues that may need attention.

 🎓 College isn't the only path! Braaten encourages parents to embrace diverse career choices and to support their kids in exploring what truly brings them joy, whether that's a trade, a creative pursuit, or something else entirely.

Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
Send all ideas to biteyourtonguepodcast@gmail.com. Remeber to follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Support US!  Visit our website at biteyourtonguepodcast.com and select SUPPORT US.  You can buy a "virtual" cup of coffee.

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

One of the things we have to do is know ourselves better, and we are on a lifelong discovery, just as they are. Sometimes these sorts of ideas about who our child should be is unfinished business for ourselves, or things like I went to college, I paid my way through college, I was the first one in my family. You're going to college too, because aren't you so lucky, as opposed to listening to what they're telling us about what they want to do? So sometimes it's our own stuff, and so we have to understand who we are. What's our unfinished business? What are the things that we expect them to be? Because we have these expectations.

Speaker 2: 0:39

Hello everyone. Welcome to Bite your Tongue the podcast. I'm Denise.

Speaker 3: 0:44

And I'm Kirsten, and we hope you will join us as we explore the ins and outs of building healthy relationships with our adult children.

Speaker 2: 0:51

Together. We'll speak with experts, share heartfelt stories and get timely advice addressing topics that matter most to you.

Speaker 3: 0:59

Get ready to dive deep and learn, to build and nurture deep connections with our adult children and, of course, when, to bite our tongues.

Speaker 2: 1:07

So let's get started. Hello everyone and welcome to another episode of Bite your Tongue, the podcast. I'm Denise and I'm joined by my wonderful co-host, Kirsten Heckendorf. I want to pause and let you know that today's going to be a very, very special episode. First, we're thrilled to welcome back my original co-host, ellen Broughton. She'll talk about her incredible new book, bright Kids. Who Couldn't Care Less? It's going to be a great conversation and we'll dive in shortly, but before we do, I have some very personal news I want to share.

Speaker 2: 1:42

After four amazing seasons with this podcast, I've been reflecting quite a bit on the journey we've taken Over the years. We've explored so many topics, spoken with insightful guests and shared tools to grow stronger relationships with our adult children. It's been such a rewarding experience, starting with Ellen as a co-host and Connie Gorn Fisher, my sister, who dove in and learned everything there was to know about audio engineering. Connie and I have been through it for the long haul. As Ellen stopped to finish her book, kirsten joined us as a co-host and we had some wonderful guest hosts along the way. It's really been a blast. But after much thought, I feel like I want to take a pause. I truly believe that we've created a treasure trove of episodes that listeners can revisit and continue to learn and grow. As long as I keep the hosting platform running, those conversations, those interviews, those episodes will be there for all of you to enjoy.

Speaker 2: 2:42

Now, I'll admit it's a bit emotional, as I share this, because when I started this podcast I never imagined it would take off like it has. To see it resonate with so many people is so humbling To see listeners tuning in from nearly 2,000 cities across the US and 53 countries, even as far away as Nicaragua, vietnam and even the Ukraine. I want to express my deepest gratitude to all of you. Thank you for listening and particularly thank you to all of you who have donated to help keep us afloat. You have no idea how much it's meant. Thank you for supporting us and believing in our work. I also want to take a minute and thank my own adult children. Your support has been everything to me. The podcast was not just a passion project of mine, but it's made me a better parent to my children as we navigate this next stage of life together. Thank you, katie and Charlie.

Speaker 2: 3:41

So what's next? Honestly, I'm just not sure. I'm definitely going to drop an episode here or there if something really sparks my interest, or if I get a guest, a great guest, a great interview that I really want to share, but there won't be a set schedule and I won't have a co-host, or maybe down the road I'll reimagine the entire podcast and something new will pop up. So for now, I'm just urging you to stay subscribed. You'll never know when a podcast is dropped if you don't stay subscribed. Kirsten, thank you for being such a fantastic partner this past year. It's been an incredible journey and I'm so grateful to have shared it with you and Ellen. I can't thank you enough for saying yes, when I called you in the midst of COVID and said let's do this podcast. And, connie, there aren't enough words for Connie Gorn Fisher, because none of you really know the work she has put into this. I am so grateful for all that you have given, all that you have learned and all that you have done to make us sound as professional as possible.

Speaker 3: 4:41

Oh, Denise, that's so nice. Thank you so much, denise. This has been an amazing experience and I've learned so much along the way, and when you started this podcast, no one was talking about our relationships with our adult kids. Now people are talking about it and they're writing about it, and that is great for all of us. You should be very proud of the work that you have done, and you too, ellen. I mean, this is a remarkable topic to be talking about.

Speaker 1: 5:06

Denise, when you started this podcast, nobody was talking about how to parent our adult children. You are really a trailblazer and the conversations you've had have expanded the entire range of all the ways we could think about raising our kids from kids who are really having difficulties to planning their weddings, to how to be when they are having their children. So you've just given so many people so much great information and I hope this isn't the end for you.

Speaker 2: 5:33

Let's stop talking about ourselves and let's get started. Listeners, if you were with me at the very beginning, you'll remember Ellen was my original co-host and she couldn't join me for several episodes because she was focused on writing her book. Well, that book is finally here. And, by the way, sheryl Sandberg you guys all know Sheryl Sandberg from Facebook. I guess she's not at Facebook anymore, but she wrote the intro Loves Ellen's work, ellen's book. It's a huge success. And the book is called Bright Kids. Who Couldn't Care Less? And it's really all about rekindling your child's emotion. She shares tools that works wonders for any age group, and you know all of us as parents of adult children many of us wonder are our kids living up to who they really are, to their potential?

Speaker 2: 6:21

Or maybe we're just looking at it through our own expectation? That's the heart of the conversation, and first I'm going to tell you a little bit more about Ellen. I first met Ellen literally over 35 years ago in Denver. She was pregnant with Hannah and I had just given birth to my first child, and she was a music teacher. She was teaching music. She was very talented, but I had no idea the depth of who she was or would become. And today she's a leading psychologist, researcher, speaker and author. She's the executive director of the learning and emotional assessment program called LEAP at Mass General Hospital, where she's worked since 1998. She holds the Kessler Family Chair in Pediatric Neuropsychological assessment. On top of that, she's an associate professor at Harvard Medical School. Her book is really making waves. Her advice couldn't be more timely. Many of us know how the pandemic dimmed the motivation and spark in young adults and young children. Schools are saying so many kids are so behind. Ellen's here to share practical tips and insights and help us learn to reignite that fire.

Speaker 3: 7:28

This is so great. Denise and Ellen, we actually haven't formally met. I've only met you virtually. Now this is the second time. I did love the explanation of the book that was on the cover, and so I'm going to read that. I think that'll help our listeners. Dr Bratton helps you understand the myriad biological, psychological and social factors that affect motivation and get to know your own child's unique strengths, weaknesses and personality traits better, gain vital tools for tackling the motivational problems that are so pervasive today, and build a plan to boost your child's confidence and engagement in life. We can't wait to get started. So let's go and, ellen, welcome to your own podcast, welcome back.

Speaker 2: 8:07

It's fun to be here, so we always ask our guests is there anything we missed in your introduction that you want to share before we get to the nitty gritty?

Speaker 1: 8:15

Just reinforcing my lifelong friendship with Denise. She's the sort of friend who's there through thick and thin, and we've really learned how to parent together. To be honest, you are my friend too. We went through every single stage.

Speaker 2: 8:33

Ellen's a grandmother before I am. Well, nobody knows. I guess I should say my daughter's pregnant. She's due in April with a little boy, and again I'm going to lean on Ellen for advice and the journey along the way. So we're very excited about that. All right let's get to the meat here. Okay, tell us about your book, and why do you think it's garnering so much attention right now? Do you think it's the timing, the topic, what do you think is? Is making it so popular.

Speaker 1: 8:58

So when I went to write this book, I you know I'm a child psychologist and I write about what it is that I'm seeing in my office, and one of the things I was seeing a lot of in 2017, 2018, were just lots of kids who had no discernible diagnosis. They weren't severely depressed or anxious or learning to say. They just had a case of sort of like the blahs, basically, and parents would come in and say they just don't do anything, they don't seem to have any interest, and so I thought, well, this might be an interesting thing to look at. Motivation, like what is motivation? What's causing kids to not be motivated?

Speaker 1: 9:30

And then, as I was starting the book, the pandemic happened and what I thought would be just a book for a very small group of parents who had troubled kids and I'm not using that term pejoratively, you know, kids who are like parents, were troubled about their kids just really sort of became a much bigger topic because we all were feeling unmotivated. And I might still say a lot of us are kind of starting or trying to figure out where we are in terms of what our life course is and where we want to go, regardless of our age. So the book is definitely written for parents of kids who are elementary school, high school, into young adulthood, but it really expands a little bit beyond that, because motivation is something we have to keep on the forefront of our lives, because it is what helps us do what we want to do in our lives, and without motivation we don't really have a lot of direction in our lives and even a lot of pleasure too.

Speaker 2: 10:25

What are some of the strategies or concerns parents of young adults might think about? When do they get concerned? I was in the grocery store the other day and you know how I talk to everybody. I'm talking to this woman and she's got all these holiday things she's buying. She says, yeah, I have three adult kids. Two of them have gone off. They're doing great. One of them have gone off. They're doing great. One of them went off, came back said she was going to do X, y and Z and nothing's happening. And I can't figure out. Is it lack of motivation? Is she scared? What would a parent like that think about?

Speaker 1: 10:56

in those situations. It's so interesting that you said this because as I was thinking about the podcast today, I was thinking do I really have anything to say about adulthood and parenting young adults? And the thing that popped in my mind is that the kids that we tend to have trouble with are the ones who don't seem to be as motivated as we'd like. So either now, in the present or, I think, as parents, we continue to have difficulties with the child who wasn't motivated early on in their life, in high school, in middle school. There's a lot of unfinished business. So, first of all, parents need to think about and identify what does that actually mean that they're not going in the right direction? One of the first things you want to do is say well, what are the behaviors that they're showing that show me that they're unmotivated? You want to identify that because if you don't really know what you're talking about, it can just feel overwhelming and very anxiety provoking.

Speaker 1: 11:50

As parents, we love to see our kids headed in the right direction. They're going off to college, they have this kind of job. We get super anxious when our kids seem to be spinning their wheels, forgetting that that's kind of part of life. So the one thing you want to do is define what that means, and the other thing that I talk about in the book are three different areas that can help us get refocused when we feel like we've lost motivation, or our kids have. And that's looking at our aptitudes, the things that give us pleasure and the things we tend to practice. We call it aptitude, practice and pleasure, but we as parents have a lot to do with that, so we can get in the way of what gives our child pleasure.

Speaker 1: 12:33

That happens a lot easier when our children are younger. So, for example, our kids want to be on the chess club, but we want them to play baseball, and baseball is what they do, and what happens is they lose motivation for everything if we drive them in that direction. We can do the same sort of thing when we're parenting young adults. Oh no, you're not taking that job, you're taking this job or you've decided to take some time off.

Speaker 1: 12:58

Those are the sorts of things that we need to pay attention to, because it really saps other people's motivation, and it means so much when it comes from a parent, so so much more than when a friend says that. So we have to be aware of what it is that we're talking about and what kind of messages we're sending. And, on the other hand, we can think about our child and what are they pretty good at. What can I encourage them to do? Because I think this is what gives them pleasure or what doesn't. You can engage in those conversations. You may be right or you may be wrong, so that is where I would start.

Speaker 2: 13:30

With a parent like that, I have two questions about this, okay. One is do you think a younger child in high school, middle school, that's not able to motivate it continues through adulthood typically. Or maybe they've peaked in high school and then they go downhill afterwards. What do you see typically?

Speaker 1: 13:49

as the trajectory. I think both of those things can happen. What really is? We just have to find our people and our place. That's what I'm talking about, that aptitude, practice and pleasure. If you think of those things as like a Venn diagram, where we want to be is in the middle of that. We want to do things that we're naturally good enough at doing. We want to do things that give us pleasure and we want to do things that we like spending time doing Like we're a child who's very unmotivated in high school, but they go out into a career immediately that they love.

Speaker 1: 14:19

They are immediately motivated. And I even find that in high school, students who are completely unmotivated in school but have a part-time job and they love it, they're up on time, they are thrilled to be there all the time. And part of that is the kids have a lot of pressure these days and not enough responsibility, so meaning that we put a lot of pressure on them but we don't give them the responsibility which makes all of us feel really great. So even a 15 or 16 year old feels great when they're opening the coffee shop downtown. Then they're like I am responsible for this. That is so much more. But when we're thinking about motivating a child, we're not thinking like rah, rah, they're working at the ice cream store this summer. We're thinking they're taking all AP classes or they're doing some sort of wonderful camp For some kids. That's the right place to be too. So I think back to your question it really depends, and it really really depends on being in the right place that fits you.

Speaker 3: 15:19

What does unmotivated kid look like? Particularly, I'm thinking of some specifics here when all of those things that we typically gauge their grades their social life seem to be on track, seem to be fine. Are there other things besides the usual that parents should be looking at?

Speaker 1: 15:42

Most kids do look pretty unmotivated, meaning they're spending lots of time on video games, on social media, unproductively. But there are those kids who don't really know. They're like rudderless. And so those kids who are okay socially or okay grade-wise, but don't really have a goal in mind, and they're not okay with that. For some kids that's a little bit okay to sort of say I live in the moment, but they don't get a lot of joy from living in the moment.

Speaker 1: 16:11

I really feel like parents. Really, they know their gut when their child is not doing well. What's hard for parents, you know. You're thinking like well, I've got plenty of friends, they seem to be okay, but I don't know what they're going on to do. Sometimes that is a problem with you and not with them, meaning that we've got to sort through this Everything. They're telling me everything's fine, but they're not doing what I want them to do, and that's when you can really discern whether or not. Okay, no, wait a minute. There's a problem here that just isn't coming out the way it normally does, or this is a problem with me and my goals and expectations.

Speaker 2: 16:48

We're going to get to more of that too. I think that's a really interesting point. I guess I also, as you say, pleasure, aptitude, what were the three things? What they practice. I feel like at 18 years old, when a kid's going off to college which everyone is saying, everyone doesn't have to go to college and I know you speak a lot about this, ellen. I'd like to hear a little bit more about that.

Speaker 2: 17:08

I'm not sure a kid at 18 even knows really what brings them pleasure in terms of what they enjoy doing, particularly when they really haven't had a job. Maybe they've babysat, they haven't opened the bookstore downtown, they've basically all of their work has been to please their teacher or please their whatever. So I think you go off to college and then you maybe start that argument I'm going to major in history and the parent reads three worst majors or communications history and I don't dance or something like that. All of that can become an entanglement in the parent and the kid. How does the kid work to identify really what they want to do at 18 years old?

Speaker 1: 17:45

So what you want to do and what brings you pleasure are two different things at age 18. You're right, you really don't know what you want to do at 18. And you know what you shouldn't. We shouldn't want it. We shouldn't know what we want to do at 60, when we're 38, either. We really shouldn't.

Speaker 1: 17:58

Life evolves. Most of us have at least six careers over the course of our lifetime, so we should really be focused on who we are at that time. Kids really should know what brings them pleasure, though, and pleasure is not product. Pleasure is I enjoy fiddling on the piano, I love to sketch, I love to run. If kids don't, really, they're not able to say I love this, one of the things to do is to I don't know how to quite say this, but to infuse your lives more with gratefulness.

Speaker 1: 18:29

So to really key into, we tend to be grateful for the things that give us pleasure, and sometimes being grateful. And what gives us pleasure is hanging out with your grandmother. Sometimes it's doing a good deed, or watching somebody's dog or playing with the dog. We tend to think about pleasure as I need to be an opera singer when, when we're 18, it can be like I love just hanging out with my dog. Well, that's a great place to start. What we tend to do as parents, though, I think, is like you could be a vet. You could be a vet, yeah.

Speaker 2: 19:01

Oh, that's right. Oh, you love animals, you should be a vet. Oh, you're argumentative, you should be a lawyer.

Speaker 1: 19:06

Exactly. We have to step back and just say you know, we're playing with the dog, how could you get to spend more time with that? We just need to take these in incremental doses and then spend more time listening to them and watching them, as opposed to giving them advice, which we all want to do. I mean, it's just it's our nature as parents to want to do that and it's so hard to step back. But you're right, a lot of kids aren't really good gauges of their own pleasure because we're not as parents.

Speaker 1: 19:37

We don't give good examples of what it means to spend time doing things we just love to do. It could be cooking, it could be reading, it can be working even too. But they need to see us living lives that are more in line and in sync with what we love doing, and that's how they learn that. I think as mothers, we are oftentimes terrible at it. What's the thing that goes? It's the stuff we love doing, and it's hard for us to get back into it. But that's what's wonderful about this time in our lives is we can do some of that, and it's never too late for us to be that kind of example for our kids.

Speaker 2: 20:15

You're absolutely right. When a parent of an adult kid notices some of the things you're saying the lack of caring the daughter that comes home had these great goals that she was going to do, but the mother said she hasn't done anything she came home intending to do. How do you start the conversation?

Speaker 1: 20:30

I think one of the things to do is just say how you're feeling and what you're observing and stick with that. So to say, I'm going to tell you I'm feeling anxious about this. You came home, you had all of these goals and I'm feeling anxious because I don't know what's happening. Help me understand this and keeping it away from I can't believe. You got home and all you've done is this and this. So, starting the conversation with what's going on for you, without catastrophizing it too, without saying are you ever going to leave? Maybe the child is a perfectly great goaler. You know what? I'm just hanging out till the first of the year because I'm not going to find a job before then, so I just want to enjoy myself. All right, great, that helps me. Now I'm not. I don't feel as anxious. What can you tell me about the beginning of the year then? What should I be looking for, so that I don't get on your back about this? So again, it's a lot about me, what I'm feeling and me. And to even say things like maybe I'm just overreacting here too. Help me understand this so I can handle my own fears. That's the best way to get into that.

Speaker 1: 21:34

Sometimes, kids are super eager to say I don't know what's going on either and I don't know what to do, mom, and I don't know where to start. That's when you can start to say well, you know, what is it that you want to do? You can give them feedback. You know a lot about your child's aptitudes. You can remember when they were five. So if they want to do some kind of total change in their career and all of a sudden you're like well, of course you'd like that. You loved writing when you were in middle school and I can see why you want to go back and get an MFA or something like that, or teach English out of the blue Thousands of things this could be. You've got that insight and you can do the conversation in a way that you're putting out hypotheses about what you think without telling them this is who they are, because nobody wants to be told who they are, even if you really know as a parent. Do you know what I mean? In a lot of ways, they don't change that much since.

Speaker 3: 22:23

So yeah, I'm in this track of okay, how do we become more flexible when we're seeing this stuff kind of evolving? Well, I guess part of it's just biting your tongue, so to speak. Right, because it can be really painful for us. Where does flexibility come into this?

Speaker 1: 22:43

You know, one of the things we have to do is know ourselves better, and we are on a lifelong discovery, just as they are. And sometimes these sorts of ideas about who our child should be is unfinished business for ourselves, or things like I went to college, I paid my way through college, I was the first one in my family you're going to college too, because aren't you so lucky, as opposed to listening to what they're telling us about what they want to do after high school. So sometimes it's our own stuff, like oh, I always wanted to be a writer, so you can be that English major. And they're like I don't want to be an English major, I want to study coding and just get a job. And so we have to understand who we are.

Speaker 1: 23:25

What's our unfinished business? What are the things that we expect them to be? Because we have these expectations like you're so lucky, why would you give up this chance and all of those sorts of things that are about us? And actually that's an opportunity for us at any age to be able to say wait a minute, I've got unfinished business that it's not too late to do something about. I can take that writing class, learn that instrument, play golf, whatever it is that we wished. We didn't do that we want to see our kids do, because we want that loop.

Speaker 2: 23:57

You're a great example of that, ellen. You do so many things, from writing to so many things to fulfill some of your dreams from earlier years. But when you brought this up, looking at yourself, you have a whole chapter on the importance of looking in the mirror and adjusting your parenting style. You also talk about expectations, and we've talked a little bit about that. But is there anything more? Because almost every episode we've done, they always say look at yourself. We're always saying why isn't the kid doing this, why isn't the kid doing that? Before we step back and say, okay, what am I doing to contribute to this? Do my expectations have to change? Is there anything else you want to say?

Speaker 1: 24:33

on that. Well, one thing I could talk about is college, but even before I get there, all the people who have been on your podcast I know a lot of it is is really that's the only thing we can change. We can't make our children be somebody other than who they want to be and in fact, when we try to do that, it fails miserably. It's the worst. So that's why it's not because it's our fault, but because it's all we've got.

Speaker 1: 24:55

One of the things I do talk a lot about in the book and I don't know if this really applies as much to your listeners because their kids are a bit older but I do feel like college is one of those areas where we put incredible expectations on kids to be this exact sort of 18, 19, and 20-year-old. And I find that kids even as early as 11 and 12, look ahead and they're like I'm not good at school, I don't like school, I don't want to do college. And instead of having those conversations with your child which, I have to say, as a parent, I did not have with one of my kids we just are like no, you're going to do this, we're going to get you more tutors, we're going to different school, we'll get the applications, we'll find the right kind of colleges, or just like that, as opposed to just listening and saying, okay, this isn't your path, what do we want to do instead? And let's do this thoughtfully and in a good way, and I think that is changing. You mentioned that at the beginning. That's kind of changing and I think that's a wonderful development.

Speaker 1: 25:56

And I'm not saying that not everybody needs to go to college or not. I think kids who want to go to college should and we should encourage them, but kids who don't, we need to give them other ways of becoming an adult. I've had parents say they've cried in my office saying I can't be the only parent at graduation for high school and my child's not going to college, like I just can't do it. He's going to have to just apply somewhere so that I can say that, even if he doesn't go.

Speaker 2: 26:20

Isn't that terrible. So that's about the parent right, and it's society too.

Speaker 2: 26:25

It's you know, it's Well you're right, but that's about how the parent feels about society, the pressures they feel whenever your child's failing, and what I was going to say to that, too, is we need to make not going to college a great thing too, that everyone has different paths. If you learn that trade, you're heading to the top I think, every profession, whatever you find your passion in. But there's a lot of things, and not only that they're earning money earlier and saving money earlier, so they might be on a better track. We have to talk more about that in a positive way. And you know, ellen, even though you said, this might not be for our listeners, because ours are a little older, doesn't matter what the age is, they can finish college and say that just wasn't for me, and I think a lot of the parents who struggle with their young adult children either.

Speaker 1: 27:13

They were young adults who went to college, barely made it through. There are lots of kids like that who went to any college USA that would take, got through, aren't really that employable because they didn't find that bliss in college. They don't know what makes them happy. College was actually not a good place to find that. College was actually not a good place to find that. So a lot of those kids that you're even describing, the person that you met in the grocery store might be one of those kids who, yeah, she got through college, yay, but she's not a teacher, she's not a nurse, she's not going to law school.

Speaker 1: 27:45

Sometimes you find that the 23-, 24 27-year-olds are still trying to figure out what they want to do, even though they graduated from college and then have phones to pay too. So you're right, we've got to really be thoughtful about giving kids lots of choices for things to do, and even working in a store, working at Nordstrom's right out of high school is fine. You love fashion? Start there, absolutely, you know, work your way up. We are desperate for managers who can, who have been in the trenches. So there's lots of ways to do this.

Speaker 2: 28:19

There is some sort of mindset that everyone's going to be CEO when they graduate or make 200,000, whatever. I think a lot of it depends on what environment you're in. I mean, I'm sure all of you read this article in the New York Times. It just made me gasp. Some young man that went to an Ivy league school has started this. They're starting prepping kids for Ivy league schools at 11 years old and this guy charges like two $300,000 to find their thing they're most passionate about make sure they really excel. Make sure. And I'm thinking to myself, oh my gosh, what are we doing?

Speaker 1: 28:56

No, and it's the wrong thing. So when we're talking about pleasure and passion, those things are not the same thing, especially what he's asking them to do, which is a lot of things that check boxes. That's how we find our pleasure. Our pleasure is oftentimes found because we've got to find something else to do. So we pick up, like our dad's old bass guitar, or we start hitting the tennis ball against the garage or those sorts of things, or we go and mow lawns, do something, Because when I was a kid, if you had nothing to do, you had to make yourself useful, and I'm sure it was the same way for both of you. We had to figure out well, I'm going to do something useful, I might as well be something I can do, and then I kind of like doing, and that was the start of finding that kids don't have those opportunities anymore, especially not if they're checking off all these boxes on someone's list.

Speaker 3: 29:45

You said something earlier about we change careers like six times. There's something in that little nugget there, because one of the things I also don't think young adults have right now is this idea that you can do anything you want to do. You can change your career. There can be multiple parts of you to your point where you can be an artist and you can be whatever, whatever. How do you instill that from a young age, that we are all of those things, not just the one thing that we went to college for or the one thing we got training in that makes us money?

Speaker 1: 30:20

I think it's unteaching kids that whole idea that we need to immerse ourselves in our careers and a lot of us in our generation really did that, so we weren't necessarily great role models for that. We have to reteach them or give them different kinds of examples of how to live lives, and the thing that they don't get when they're in high school is they just so many kids. It's just high school 24-7. It's study, study, study. Don't even do chores at home. We don't want to interfere with your ability to study for that test. I'll do everything for you. And it's crazy.

Speaker 1: 30:55

We're teaching them the opposite of what you just suggested, which is life is a puzzle and we put pieces in the puzzle and many people who are artists say I just want to work as a waitress because when I get off I don't have emails to return. I can just be an artist. So we've got to be able to give them this idea that life is much more of a puzzle or a painting that we're constantly putting into place and changing around. It's a hard thing to do, but I think having discussions about that and again centering it around what are the things that we really care about that give us pleasure, that we're grateful for. That's really the heart of this. Just in our society we're not very good at really understanding that pleasure.

Speaker 2: 31:40

I love this whole gratefulness thing and I think that's something that we all miss and we all forget because there's so much to be grateful for. Ellen, the last part of your book is when you need extra help. When should we be concerned about our adult children, and what can we do when we find this kid with great potential doesn't give care?

Speaker 1: 31:58

at all. So the things to really look for are an absence of friendships, an absence of doing things that give them pleasure in their free time and not holding a job. Those are the things that really get in the way of life. And, as we're looking at successful adults, they have jobs. They have relationships that are sustaining to them and satisfying to them. Now you have to look at your child.

Speaker 1: 32:22

For some people that means lots of friendships.

Speaker 1: 32:25

For others that can just be a partnership with one person and a couple of friends in their family, so be able to know your child and whether or not that's appropriate for them.

Speaker 1: 32:35

But when they're chronically having issues, chronically depressed, unable to hold a job, unable to be successful in relationships, that's when, more than one of those two, you can have a child who just has trouble with a long-term partnership. For example, yes, therapy can help that, talking therapy can help that, talking to people can help that. But when you really want to be worried when two out of those three things are not going well and we do miss, sometimes significant mental health issues in our young adults, thinking that they just don't care, they've never cared, when in many cases and I know you've talked about this on many shows that mid-20s is a huge time when mental health issues show up, and very significant mental health issues like thought disorders, schizophrenia. So we can miss those thinking that if he'd just get a job he'd be fine, as opposed to maybe he doesn't have a job, maybe we haven't heard from him in three months, because there's something bigger going on. And consult a professional, if you think that's what's happening, so that you can get some clarity on that.

Speaker 2: 33:47

And you think the professional can help you learn to say, to know what to say to them, because that's hard to approach a kid that's been completely thriving and all of a sudden they're in their early twenties and something shakes and you feel like they need some help. There's ways to approach it and, I'm sure, ways not to.

Speaker 1: 34:04

Yeah, I think the more information the better, because the hardest thing when you've got a child who's not successfully negotiating adulthood especially in those years, those 20s, which I think is such a hard age group it's so hard, it's very easy to get caught up in that mindset that I'm going to limit set with this child Again. I know you've had podcasts on this. I've listened to them. We also have to keep that in mind. It's not like there is a one size fits all. All of these things are important in terms of our toolbox as parents. So you want to make sure you get a lot of information about that and I really do think that most good psychologists, psychiatrists, could give you some good information about what you've seen if they have enough information from you about what the child has been like. So a child has done well, gone to Ivy League school, and all of a sudden in mid-20s they're online, being radicalized with some cause. That's cause for concern. That's not a normal transition into adulthood, especially when it's not been part of their childhood at all.

Speaker 2: 35:07

So right? Well, Ellen, this is hard for me to say, but we always ask our guests for two takeaways. I'd love you to offer two takeaways. This has been wonderful.

Speaker 1: 35:17

Okay, one of the things I was thinking about with this is we put so much guilt on ourselves as parents for not doing things right when they were little. We can do things pretty badly when they're older too. A mom can say something to a child like just something awful to them. I've heard lots of my friends say my mother said on our deathbed this or that, and so it's good for us to keep in mind that parenting and this is sort of the whole point of your podcast, but parenting isn't over. Like we are still parenting, like we have a chance to correct all those things that we went why didn't we do that?

Speaker 1: 35:59

And we can say these things to our kids in a way that's so healing to them and to us too, because half the time it was worse on us than it was on them, to be honest but that the things we're doing now are actually parenting them. They are not totally formed, and neither are we, and so we can really continue to learn to be great parents throughout our lives, no matter how we started, no matter what kind of ways we fumbled. So that's one thing. Just remember that. And the other thing is get yourself a friend like Denise, and if you don't have a Denise in your life, go find one, because there are lots of parents out there who wish they had another parent who could be there and say no, you didn't screw up, you did a good job and your kids are doing great and I love you and them too, and that's what everybody needs in their lives. Seriously, we all need support. This is a communal activity.

Speaker 2: 36:49

We all do need support. You're right, I just loved what you said. Initially we all thought 18, we were done. Get them into a good college, you're done. The impact we have and again, we've said this in every episode it's our longest relationship with these kids. It's our time to reflect on some of the things we may have not done great and making up for some of that and, most important, accept them for who they are. Thank you.

Speaker 1: 37:13

Ellen, thank you for having me. I've really enjoyed this and I'm going to miss seeing you in this arena. At least for now, we'll see what happens.

Speaker 3: 37:23

Ellen, thank you again so much for being with us today. It's always a great conversation. I really appreciate it. Yeah, we all do.

Speaker 2: 37:31

Okay, guys, it's bittersweet saying goodbye this time Again. We'll not be back on a regular schedule and episodes may drop when I read something, find someone who we can talk to and want to explore again. But as the founder of the podcast, I'm going to go it alone and I'm going to do what I think is best for the listeners, but we can't thank you all enough for listening, supporting us and coming on this journey with us. Finally, I want to thank Connie, ellen and Kirsten for taking this journey with me. You added so much and made it a lot more fun to do this on a regular basis.

Speaker 3: 38:02

So thank you, denise, you're welcome and thank you so much for having me, and I think you really said it the best, and we are so grateful to all of the listeners and hope you have taken away some amazing nuggets to help you continue to develop healthy relationships with your adult children. These episodes aren't going anywhere, so please check back whenever you want.

Speaker 2: 38:23

And still consider. If you have a great idea, send it to me at biteyourtonguepodcast at gmailcom. I still like to get your ideas and we'll decide what to do. Remember to stay subscribed because we'll continue to have the podcast episodes up there live as long as I continue to pay for our hosting platform. Follow us on social media. I might be posting now and then, but I have to say the greatest relief for me, to be honest with you, is not having to be on social media. It seems that it's altered our world and we've seen that a lot through these interviews. Thank you again, listeners, and if you take anything away from the last four years, remember and we're all going to say this together sometimes you just have to bite your tongue. Thank you.