Healing Emotional Rifts Between Parents and Adult Children

🌟 A listener wrote to us about Tina Gilbertson, the guest in today's episode. She told us that Tina "saved her life." The pain and guilt that parents go through when estranged from their adult children is unimaginable. 

We asked Tina what really is estrangement? Is it a troubled relationship? Is it silence? "No, she said: "It could also be you talk every day. But maybe there's a constant tension, or you're always getting into little conflicts, and sometimes you go apart and have to be apart for a while, and then you come back together."  This episode is about  building a stronger and  less stressful relationship with your adult children And we all need that!

We talk about:

• Understanding the relationship between self-perception and parent-child connection
• Defining estrangement and its various forms
  • The importance of addressing emotional distances and insecurities
  • Steps to take when facing estrangement: pause, reflect, research, and reach out
• Effective methods for navigating difficult conversations
• Resources and support available through the Reconnection Club
• The ongoing journey of healing and self-improvement in parent-child dynamics

Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
Send all ideas to biteyourtonguepodcast@gmail.com. Remeber to follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Support US!  Visit our website at biteyourtonguepodcast.com and select SUPPORT US.  You can buy a "virtual" cup of coffee.

Chapters

• 0:04 Building Healthy Relationships With Adult Children
• 10:51 Navigating Estrangement With Adult Children
• 25:58 Navigating Parent-Child Relationships Post-Enmeshment
• 30:58 Navigating Complex Parent-Child Emotions
• 36:53 Navigating Estrangement and Reconnection
• 45:41 Podcast Update and Call to Action

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:04

Your relationship with yourself is the foundation of your relationship with your child or children. If there's a problem in your relationship with your child or children, it may indicate that there's something to look at within you, a way that maybe there's a disconnect inside or there's self-criticism, stuff that doesn't quite come together within you. So it is never the wrong thing to focus on your relationship with yourself.

Speaker 3: 0:33

Hello everyone. Welcome to Bite your Tongue, the podcast.

Speaker 2: 0:36

I'm Denise and I'm Kirsten, and we hope you will join us as we explore the ins and outs of building healthy relationships with our adult children. Together.

Speaker 3: 0:46

We'll speak with experts, share heartfelt stories and get timely advice addressing topics that matter most to you.

Speaker 2: 0:53

Get ready to dive deep and learn, to build and nurture deep connections with our adult children and, of course, when, to bite our tongues. So let's get started.

Speaker 3: 1:09

Welcome, Tina. We're thrilled to have you with us. I think we should start by you telling our listeners a little bit about how you got into this whole arena and specialty of helping parents who are estranged from their adult children.

Speaker 1: 1:20

Yeah, I really just fell into it by accident. As a therapist, I had all these adult clients who came in for various reasons, but they often mentioned that they were not happy with their parents. They didn't want to go home for holidays, they were exasperated by their parents contacting them and all of this stuff. And when I asked them about it, you know what do your parents say when you tell them, oh, I can't tell them, or oh, they don't get it, or there was, it was.

Speaker 1: 1:50

I became aware that there was this big disconnect between my clients and their parents and you know it's not ethical for me to go reach out to their parents and say, hey, guess what? I had a website, I was writing articles and I wrote an article called what to do when someone won't talk to you because, by the way, my clients were also having trouble in relationships with, with the silent treatment and people you know not talking to them. So and I started hearing from parents like by the dozens, and then it was by the hundreds and it just became clear that there was a massive need for acknowledgement and help with parent-adult-child estrangement. I felt like I had a lot of compassion, you know, for the people involved.

Speaker 3: 2:32

I have a lot of compassion too. When I started this podcast, no one was really talking about adult-child-parent relationships. Now it's become a little bit more forthright and people are talking about it. But let's talk about what estrangement really is and why do you think this phenomenon is growing so much. I mean, a lot of people are saying, well, these millennials, they're very spoiled, you know. They just therapists are telling them cut out your parents. But really, what do you think? What do you think's really happening here? And then I want you to clarify that what we're talking about today is just sort of a typical estrangement. I don't want to go into sexual abuse harm. People that you know went through really severe cases. This is where the parents driving them crazy or triggering them in some way that they're breaking off. So let's start with define estrangement and why you think it's such a growing phenomenon.

Speaker 1: 3:26

Yeah, we don't have an agreed upon definition of estrangement. Some researchers have made it entirely quantitative If you haven't talked to your child for this long, it means you're estranged. Other researchers see it more as a qualitative thing. So there are different definitions. I think of it as basically it's a relationship where it feels like it's in trouble. It feels like there's at least an emotional distance between you. There's more distance than you would like. Maybe there's a tension in the relationship. So it's a troubled relationship that's characterized by some sense of distance that is unwanted, at least on one side.

Speaker 3: 4:08

So it doesn't have to be just silence.

Speaker 1: 4:10

Oh no, it could be total silence, but it could also be. You talk every day but there's a maybe there's a constant tension or you're always getting into little conflicts and sometimes you go apart and have to be apart for a while and then you come back together. So there can be like an on again, off again. Now we're speaking, now we're not aspect to it Anywhere from you know you see them all the time to you never see them can be a form of estrangement. It's really kind of how much is it hurting you to continue with the relationship as it is because of a sense of?

Speaker 3: 4:42

distance Boy. That's really interesting. I would say many, many parents have a sense where they're walking on eggshells and they need to always watch what they're saying and that can be a form of estrangement if you're hurting.

Speaker 1: 4:56

Yeah, I think of it as emotional estrangement. The distance is not physical, it's not logistical. Okay, you can get them on the phone, but there's a feeling that the relationship is no longer as close as it once was and you can sort of hold both things at once. You can understand, okay, yeah, they're adults, they have their own lives, they have partners, they have new attachment figures. I get it. But also there can be a real sense of grief for the loss of that connection, that sense of connection that you used to have. If it feels like there is room for the relationship to be easier, better, a little bit closer, without there being over-involvement, then there may be some repair work that can be done. But the idea, of course, that it'll ever be the way it was when they were living at home, that's a pretty tall order ever be the way it was when they were living at home.

Speaker 3: 5:47

That's a pretty tall order, sort of what I was going to say. Isn't there some responsibility of the parent to also understand that as the child becomes an adult, the relationship will change and that you are not the center stage? You can get hurt for them not calling you all the time or not sharing everything with you. I didn't share everything with my parents. Isn't there something in us where we have to say what is it we really want and who are we to demand all of this? I mean, I don't feel as close to my children as I did when they were living with me by any means, because hopefully, I raised them to be independent. They each have significant others. That person should be their go-to person, at least in my mind. Yes, so is this something parents have to learn? What are our expectations?

Speaker 1: 6:35

Well, the parents I speak to usually say I know very well that I am not the primary person in my child's life and that's good, I'm glad they have someone else. I just need to know they're okay. I just want to have a little tiny corner of their lives where I can fit in. You know, just to be included, even in a small way, is all I want. So it's very painful when even that seems unattainable.

Speaker 3: 7:02

You mentioned on your website that a stranger can happen to even good people, and I know very good parents in my life that raised wonderful children. They care deeply about their children, and yet there's estrangement. You also say that many estrangements are temporary and that parents have control over the situation. How does this estrangement typically unfold and how do parents have the control? What can they do? Our listeners like to get tips. What should they be looking for? What should they be doing? How can they improve and better this relationship? Okay?

Speaker 1: 7:34

well, the idea that parents have total control over the situation is, of course, not true Parents have control.

Speaker 3: 7:42

I guess you wrote more control, not total. You wrote more control. I guess you wrote more control, not total.

Speaker 1: 7:44

You wrote more control. Well, there's usually more control than you think in your relationship with your kid because the parent, in my view, always sets the tone of the relationship, even if you don't get to set the level of frequency of contact or any of that. Since your child was born, since they came into your life, the parent has set the tone for the parent-child relationship. The child was not able to do that when they first came into the relationship. The parent did, and for the first, let's say, 18 years it was the parent who set the tone as best they could for the relationship, given whatever came back at them. And I believe that throughout life, parents of children any age retain a certain special status in that relationship because of the history, because of having been responsible for your child for so many years of their early lives. But the control that you have is more to do with influence than it is to do with actually, you know, putting your hands in and messing around. The influence you have is largely from role modeling. Once they're adults, the influence you have is with yourself, in your behavior, your words, how you choose to approach, the tone that you take. These are all within the parent's control and they certainly can have an impact.

Speaker 1: 9:11

Anytime a relationship, one person in a relationship, changes, it does change the relationship. But you know, people ask well, if my child isn't talking to me, how much does it matter what I do? They're not going to see it. That brings us to a central point.

Speaker 1: 9:27

It's one of my takeaways, I think, for today, which is that the parent's relationship with him or herself is the foundation of the relationship with their child or children. The more parents focus on their own healing, their own growth, their own well-being, their own needs emotionally, the better equipped they are to show up in that parent-child relationship with a full bucket emotionally. That's kind of an ideal way to show up in that parent-child relationship with a full bucket emotionally. That's kind of an ideal way to show up in that particular relationship. Because it seems to cause trouble when parents approach the adult child. Sometimes without that full bucket the parent may not even realize some of the needs that they have that are going unmet. But children are so good at sussing out what's going on with their parents that may be largely unconscious to the parent.

Speaker 3: 10:22

I want some examples of this, but the first thing that comes to mind to me is the parent's insecure and they have to sort of fill up their bucket and that's hard, hard work because they're showing their child. They're insecure by the questions they're asking their child. Are they trying to get the security through their child? Can you give me some examples of that? When the bucket's not full, how they may approach things, and then when the bucket's full, how?

Speaker 1: 10:50

you approach things Well.

Speaker 1: 10:51

An example I see a lot of a bucket that's not full is a parent who has not.

Speaker 1: 10:57

Let's say, it's a mom who has not really had a lot of support in her life, who hasn't had a full partnership with her spouse or partner and she is pretty much coming last in most of her relationships. Who is a good, sensitive, loving person, who is very well aware of mom's unmet needs and including her need for visibility, for appreciation for the needs that we all have. To be special to someone, to matter as humans to someone and unbeknownst to that mom, who is so used to her needs, just mattering, not at all unbeknownst to her, her emotional well-being may be front and center in her relationship with that child. That child can take on the emotional burden of those unmet needs without the mom knowing, let alone intending for that to happen. The mom can say don't worry about me, you know, go be happy, go do your thing. But words are nothing compared to how you are in your being. So the mom we're talking about is maybe out of touch with herself in ways that she doesn't even realize.

Speaker 3: 12:11

What are the steps they have to take? Maybe you feel that way, but what do you need to do? I don't know. Common actions and behaviors that unintentionally push away our adult children.

Speaker 1: 12:21

Well, one is continuing to parent as if they were still at home, still there, still children. That's a pretty common one. I think that people understand that continuing to parent your child as you did before can unwittingly push them away because your 25-year-old does not want to necessarily have, necessarily they might, but they may not want that kind of parenting. But not taking sufficient care of themselves is something that can unwittingly push children away, as I just mentioned.

Speaker 3: 12:52

How do you know if you're not taking care of yourself?

Speaker 1: 12:54

One clue is your child's estrangement. You know, estrangement is for many people the first sign that what they've been doing is no longer working. What they've been doing to hold themselves together, to hold everyone else together, whatever they've been doing to make life work, it has broken down in some very important way in this most important relationship. So estrangement may be your first clue that your relationship with yourself is in trouble. If your relationship with yourself is the foundation of your relationship with your child, then trouble in that relationship may indicate trouble within. It may be being out of touch with yourself, being out of touch with your own needs. Insecurity, as you mentioned, and all of these things come from a place of experience. If you're insecure, there's a reason for that. You were born with a certain temperament, you know. You may have a sort of a temperament where you're not super bold, but you're not born insecure. Insecurity is learned in relationship to other people and the world. Being tentative, being shy, may be a temperament thing. Insecurity is different, it's interpersonal.

Speaker 1: 14:09

So when the estranged adult child, they may say actually this happens quite a lot. An adult child will say please get therapy. And the parent feels offended. Of course, right. Who are you to tell me to get therapy. What are you talking about? And I don't need that? Or will you come to therapy with me? Let's work this out.

Speaker 3: 14:30

And that's not a good idea.

Speaker 1: 14:32

I actually did a podcast on this because therapy with your adult child is fraught. Let's say, when you go into therapy with your child it is not like going into therapy with your husband or wife. As a parent in family therapy you're kind of in the hot seat in ways that can be excruciating, and I have heard many stories of parents going to therapy either at their own request or at the request of an adult child with whom they were having a troubled relationship and therapy making things worse Because the parent was not prepared for the feeling of being just eviscerated in the therapy room. And that can happen, even if you know a therapist is trying to not let that happen. Being a parent is so just inherently vulnerable that when you're being faced with a problem presented by your adult child, it can hook into all sorts of shame. I can't even describe how awful it can feel being in a therapy room with your adult child if you are not prepared. Feel being in a therapy room with your adult child if you are not prepared, and I feel like preparation is going to your own therapy and getting used to looking inside with love, not with judgment or criticism. Many people don't know how to look at themselves without thinking. I'm looking at myself to find out how bad I am and how I can change and be better. That's not what, in my view, what therapy is about. I think therapy should be about learning how lovable you actually are, even though you're not perfect.

Speaker 1: 16:05

So step one is stop. If there's a problem with your child, stop, pause. It can be sort of panicking. It feels like if I don't do something right now, my child is going to go further and further away. I've got to do something to stop this. I understand that. It's understandable. It's panic, though. It's not true that if you don't act now, this is not going to be fixable, and in fact, in many cases, it's true that if you act prematurely, you can make things worse. So the first thing is stop, pause, breathe, rest and focus on yourself. Focus on yourself. What's going on with me right now?

Speaker 3: 16:46

And that's hard for a mom who's focused on their family and their children for their whole life. They've given so much of themselves. I did an episode I'm not going to say her name right, but she's great at mother-daughter relationships Roshka, Roshka, Heseldine, Heseldine. Yeah, and we titled the episode the Burnt Hamburger because the mother always took the burnt hamburger. If you cooked all the hamburgers, oh, I'll take the burnt one. And she says well, that's where it starts, and I never could quite understand it. You're saying the exact same thing that you have to take care of yourself. So the other thing I want to ask is it seems like everything you're saying and everything I hear, it's the parent's responsibility to change, and you kind of said that at the beginning. But sometimes you want to say why isn't my kid nicer to me? Can't they just say, mom, that doesn't sound right, Try it again? Or, instead of just getting angry or arguing, do they have any responsibility in this relationship?

Speaker 1: 17:46

Great question. Very often estranged adult children have their own work to do. Certainly it becomes the parent's responsibility to fix when it is the parent who wants the relationship and the child has stepped away. If you are stepping away from me, Denise, and I want you back, and you're indifferent or appear to be. It's kind of my job to try to figure out. How do I get Denise back. Whereas if we're both in it and we're having trouble together and we're upfront about how much we love each other, then we can meet each other halfway.

Speaker 3: 18:22

Okay. So now your child's estranged, are there steps towards approaching contact again? Your child says I can't talk to you anymore. It's causing havoc on my emotional self. I need a break. I don't know how many months go by, or weeks go by, or what does the parent have to do at this point.

Speaker 1: 18:40

Yeah, I have a sort of conceived of a roadmap of sorts. It's very general but it's designed to really apply to just about everyone who finds themselves estranged from their adult children and it's got basically three steps. Step one is rest and recover. As I just indicated, the roadmap goes in the opposite direction to what you would think. First is rest and focus on yourself. Second is research, learn, understand, figure out and don't rely on your child for that. And step three is reach out. Most parents naturally do the reaching out immediately, like stop, stop, come back, and then, if that doesn't work, they may do some research and then, when they get exhausted and hopeless and desperate, they finally rest for the moment. That is the opposite of the way that I would love for parents to approach it. It's super hard, it's extremely unnatural, because it feels like you're walking in the opposite direction from where you need to go to get your child back.

Speaker 3: 19:46

So once the parent has rested, maybe they've even gotten therapy. Maybe a couple months has passed. How do they?

Speaker 1: 19:52

re-approach. So approaching is step two is research. 90% of the work of reconnecting the parent can do without reaching out to the adult child. In many cases, if not most cases, that doesn't quite compute right Because, like, how do you reconnect? If there's no contact, right Contact. The lack of contact is not the problem. If you could solve the problem with more contact, then you would just reach out a lot and the kid would go oh okay, we're okay now because we have lots of contact. It doesn't work.

Speaker 3: 20:27

No, I get it, I get it, I get it.

Speaker 1: 20:29

So that's why you want to do everything you can to be prepared for contact, because the contact that you used to have led to estrangement. Something in there, let's presume something in the relationship, in the contact, in the interactions over time ended with an estrangement and so contact itself can be explored and plumbed. For what was going on there that was so uncomfortable for my child that they made this difficult decision to just stop what was going on in there? And parents ask me well, how can I find that out? They won't talk to me. I don't know what was going on. That's a reasonable thing to ask.

Speaker 1: 21:16

But the fact is there's tons of information available about what goes wrong between parents and children and between parents and adult children. Tons of information, in fact. Your adult child may not even know or be able to articulate in a way that you can hear or at all what the issue is. I know somebody who was estranged for years from his family. He told me, and when I asked him why, he said I don't really know. But then after some years he just went back and he's been back ever since with his family. Some estrangements are like that, where the adult child really can't even articulate why they need that space.

Speaker 3: 21:56

During this time, there's not a birthday card even sent. The parent just has to disappear and work on themselves. Is that what you're saying?

Speaker 1: 22:04

Not in every case. If you've been asked specifically I need some space or I need some time, I will contact you when I'm ready that kind of language, then you've been asked for no contact. Contact you when I'm ready that kind of language, then you've been asked for no contact, and in that case the most relationship-preserving response is to honor that request and not reach out.

Speaker 3: 22:25

Even if years go by.

Speaker 1: 22:27

Yeah, hopefully years don't go by. But yes, even if years do go by, people want to have a plan from day one. If I don't hear within X time, then I will do this or that. That's understandable, but it's not always something you can do when a year has gone by and you have not reached out to your child and they have not reached out to you. Then you will be in whatever place you're in psychologically, emotionally, mentally and you will then decide do I continue to give space or do I gently reach out and offer an opportunity to come back together? And I think when you've had a no contact request, I don't think you have to honor that for the rest of your life. I think it's important to honor it, but there may come a time when your child might be available to reconnect but doesn't quite have enough bandwidth to figure out how. And then a gentle reach out.

Speaker 3: 23:25

How would you? Because you could do all this work and rest and then reach out and say the wrong thing on the get-go.

Speaker 1: 23:31

So after rest, after rest and understanding yourself and stuff is research Right, right, research Right. So that is gaining enough information that you have some idea of what went wrong. Here's an example of something that goes wrong enmeshment. I'm not sure if you have talked about that on this podcast. No, we have not.

Speaker 1: 23:53

Enmeshment can trigger estrangement in adult children once they leave. Enmeshment is, in simple terms, a too close relationship. It's over-involvement, it's not enough room. There's often role confusion.

Speaker 1: 24:08

Where the child is more like a friend they might be 10 years old but still feel like dad's best friend or mom's best friend that kind of relationship feels good, it feels like closeness, but it feels better for the parent than for the child. You may not know that that's the kind of scary thing is you? You may not realize that this closeness doesn't feel quite the same to the child, who may feel responsible for being a good friend and also, again, for meeting some of your emotional needs, for companionship, belonging, visibility, appreciation and so on. It when a child has been enmeshed with a parent or in a very, very close family, once they have the opportunity and ability to leave the home, parents and families can be shocked at a cutoff that feels very sudden, and often there's somebody new in the picture, a new girlfriend, a new boyfriend, new set of friends, and those people are, of course. I mean, there's a correlation there, right? So it's like what have they done to our beloved child?

Speaker 3: 25:14

I see different situations and particularly if it's one parent, the child feels a little bit more responsible, like you said, to have that friendship. But then if they start fulfilling their life as they're getting older, I can understand how the parent might really start to feel left out because they haven't taken the time to work on themselves right Because the parent may not have anyone else who lights them up the way that child does.

Speaker 1: 25:38

They may not have another emotional intimate relationship the way they do with that child.

Speaker 3: 25:43

So how does a parent recognize this? It all sounds so wonderful. The child's calling all the time. They're sharing all kinds of fun things, they gossip together. Does the parent start recognizing this and think, okay, I've got to pull away a little bit, or could it all be wonderful? It could all be wonderful.

Speaker 1: 25:58

Enmeshment doesn't have to lead to estrangement. It doesn't have to Right. It can, though, and I think, from what I've seen, usually it's estrangement that clues parents in to the fact that they were enmeshed. In fact, it was too much, yeah, and sometimes parents ask me is it possible? I mean, my child seems enmeshed with me, but is it possible for them to be enmeshed with me and not the other way around? The answer is there isn't such a thing as a one-sided zipper. I mean, enmeshment is a collaborative thing.

Speaker 3: 26:31

Right, that makes perfect sense. So we talked about continuing setting gifts because I think, like you said, estrangement isn't just being completely cut off. It also can be feeling uncomfortable, and I like this conversation A and conversation about a parent calling their son at college and how. The first one you say be curious, not defensive, and I think this is true for everyone listening, whether you're estranged from your child or not these kinds of tools on how to approach them. Someone else said always be curious, tell me more. I'd like to just go through this. I'll be the mom, okay, because I can be a tough one. I can probably say it all wrong. So the first conversation is well, I would probably say Hi, sweetie, how are your classes going?

Speaker 1: 27:23

Fine. You don't have to yell at me. I'm just trying to. I know what you're trying to do, I know okay.

Speaker 3: 27:30

So what have I done? What have I done now? Every time I call you, just yell at me.

Speaker 1: 27:34

I don't want to talk about this right now. I have to go, I have to study. You have to go.

Speaker 3: 27:38

It's been two weeks since we've talked Mom, don't be so dramatic. Then I hang up, you hang up, and we both feel terrible. Okay, so now let's go to how we should have been doing it. Hi, sweetie, how are classes going? Fine, great honey.

Speaker 1: 27:54

You're fine, okay. Okay, that's wonderful, is that it? What do you mean? I can't believe you're not going to ask for details about my classes. That's what you usually do.

Speaker 3: 28:03

I know I usually do ask that, don't I?

Speaker 1: 28:06

That's fine. I don't need you to ask. In fact, please don't Okay.

Speaker 3: 28:10

How are you? Do you really have to start saying that's wonderful or good for you, you or just open curious statements and rather than how was that English test? We all have to practice that because all of us want to know how the English test went.

Speaker 1: 28:25

It's easier said than done. A lot of what we talk about, and you know what's prescribed, is far easier said than done, isn't it? And I?

Speaker 3: 28:34

think it's so far easier said than done.

Speaker 1: 28:36

But that has to do with how full our buckets are, how equipped we are, how taken care of we are in our own lives, that we are able to come with this ability, this calm, maybe, and practice this skill.

Speaker 3: 28:51

A single parent may feel very alone and not taken. You know, when money's an issue, you don't know what everyone's struggling with and it's hard to rise above all of that. I interviewed this one woman and you would love her, dr Susan Heitler, and I use what she told me. She said to me and to our listeners it's always agree, and so if your child says I'm mad about this or whatever, I agree, you must be really angry about that. We should talk about it rather than why do I make you angry? It's disagree and no buts. I try to use that as much as I can with my husband, with my friends. It's not always just your adult child.

Speaker 1: 29:30

That's right, that's so true. And don't you find that you kind of have to be ready to do that? You have to be thinking about it Like I am going to not just react. I'm going to respond the way I know I want to right, it's a lot of work, though it's a lot of work.

Speaker 3: 29:44

I want you to talk about your reconnection club. I also just want to show everyone her book. I know it's backwards, but it's reconnecting with your estranged adult child and there are so many things in here that I think everyone will love. In fact, before we get to the end, I want to talk about giving advice. So you have a whole section on giving advice. What's your advice for giving advice?

Speaker 1: 30:05

Well, I mean, I'm sure you've covered this many times before, but if they want advice and you have some good advice to give, then yes, but it's so hard to go from a hundred to zero, right, for 18 years or whatever. You give advice, for some period of time you are legally obligated to be in their lives and have a major influence and then boom, they're legally adults now and you have zero.

Speaker 3: 30:34

They're supporting themselves. You have no financial ties, because money can be a weird thing.

Speaker 1: 30:40

Absolutely. Yes, it can. It's a lot to navigate the money issues, but also the emotional impact of going from I kind of own a lot of your stuff to I own nothing of yours. Right, that's a big shift. And while you're making that shift, there's all these details that you have to figure out. What's my role here? It's like a whole new language, a whole new circumstances to get used to. Rules, a whole new set of rules.

Speaker 3: 31:11

What do you say to a parent when they're watching their child? Any example they're buying their first home. They're spending $500,000 and you just think, oh my gosh, this is not the right house for them to buy the neighborhood. They're not thinking through the fees the right way. Do you offer advice or zip it? Bite your tongue.

Speaker 1: 31:30

Yeah, you know, I think bite your tongue is the thing to do, but don't do it without giving yourself the room to have whatever it is you have about it. Are you afraid for them? Are you sad? Is there sadness in there about how much they're moving on? I mean, what are all the feelings in there that are activating you? Because if you don't take a moment to turn the focus around, you're missing an opportunity for your own healing and your own growth. Turn the focus around. You're missing an opportunity for your own healing and your own growth.

Speaker 1: 32:00

Our whole past is always kind of it's in there and it's always presenting itself in little ways here and there. Like, is it time for you to think about me? Would you like to feel this, finally, the thing that you had to put away? So there's all these opportunities, and kids are a rich source of opportunities to process grief, to process resentment, to process even I'll say this hatred.

Speaker 1: 32:24

Some people I think more people than will admit it have experienced feelings of hatred toward their children, and it's important to me to say that, because it is a huge taboo. You don't hear people going around and saying that, but if any parent hearing this has ever felt like, oh, I just hate this person, even just in the moment. Understand that hatred is not the opposite of love and that it is very understandable in a circumstance where you feel powerless against being hurt by someone who seems more powerful than you. So it's kind of a combination of resentment and anger and powerlessness. That's what hatred is. We don't you know a bird that poops on our car? I mean we don't feel powerless in the face of, or a toddler who's raging. We doesn't necessarily evoke those strong feelings when you say love and hate.

Speaker 3: 33:23

I wonder too if that hate comes through because you've loved so much. Does that make sense?

Speaker 1: 33:30

You think because of the intensity?

Speaker 3: 33:32

Yeah, you've loved this person so much and now, everything they're doing, you're feeling this like who are you? I can't stand you, but I'm not sure that hate would be so great if you didn't love them so much Does that make any sense?

Speaker 1: 33:49

It does to me. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It's important to me to talk about hatred and the whole rainbow of feelings because I want people to accept that they're human and they do have a full range of emotions, and it doesn't make you bad to have feelings that are uncomfortable or painful. And the more you can accept all of your feelings toward your child or anything else, the easier it will be to both accept and understand and show compassion for your child's feelings if they differ from yours.

Speaker 3: 34:22

This is so great. You're so right when you say rest and do research. I want to be clear on what this research is, because it can take time. It can be reading your book. It can be reading Joshua Coleman's book, it can be it's not just going online and fiddling around. It's really understanding how relationships work and how you may be contributing to what's upsetting this relationship. Looking inside yourself, really being able to look inside yourself.

Speaker 1: 34:53

Right and it's very threatening to be told to look at yourself. It feels like an indictment oh, you're estranged. Look at yourself. I mean, it just feels so like an attack, our whole selves. That's when we can change. That's when we can be our best selves. Nobody gets better or becomes a better person by feeling judged and criticized and worthless Nobody.

Speaker 3: 35:27

What other research do you suggest people do? Therapy is part of it.

Speaker 1: 35:32

Therapy. Yeah, I think your podcast is part of research. It's all about relationships. Books about estrangement my first book, if I may say.

Speaker 3: 35:41

Yes, tell us about that real quick Suit. I wanted to bring that up, Okay.

Speaker 1: 35:45

My first book, constructive Wallowing, is all about how to experience difficult feelings without them breaking you or you feeling like you're terrible for having them. It's supposed to be like sitting with a therapist and feeling accepted in. I'm trying to operationalize what I mean when I say have compassion for yourself. I want people to have steps that they can take. This is how I show myself compassion. I identify my emotions. I don't just push them away or I don't judge myself for having them. I identify them. I find reasons why it makes sense that I feel that way and I allow myself to feel them in the privacy of my heart, fully without any judgment. So there's so much invested in avoiding like feeling bad angry, whatever it may be. There's we invest so much thought into how can I overcome these feelings when the simplest way is to just let yourself have it safely and then move through it in that way I've got to get that book.

Speaker 3: 36:53

Okay, I want to ask one question. You're estranged from your adult child for years and years. They really want nothing to do with you, and you're getting older. Do you keep them in your will?

Speaker 1: 37:01

Oh boy, that's a very complicated question and a very personal one, but the way I think about it is this when you pass away, you leave not just material things but an emotional legacy as well. You leave an impression of who you were and what you stood for and what you were all about, and your will may be part of that emotional legacy. If a child thinks you're a horrible person and they are cut out of the will, they can, for the rest of their lives, walk around and say my parent was a horrible person and they cut me out of the will. That's walk around and say my parent was a horrible person and they cut me out of the will.

Speaker 1: 37:41

That's the kind of person my parent was if they feel justified in their estrangement yeah, if you leave something for them and they don't find out until after you're gone that you were generous to them and your will, you know it's almost kinder to leave them nothing and let them think you were horrible, because for the rest of their lives they will have this cognitive dissonance of having cut you off and given you nothing for years and then received something from you just purely out of generosity. It's almost kinder not to do that Because they will have to live with that.

Speaker 3: 38:15

Yeah, but it might be growth for them. You might include a letter with it that talks about the pain, but you still love them all. This time. I know you're saying it's kinder because they would say, okay, they were a terrible parent, they didn't leave me anything. But I'd be more apt to leave it. And because I still love them, I want them to know I never stopped loving you, and I'm sure I messed up in so many ways and I respected your decision to separate from me, but it doesn't mean that I ever stopped loving you.

Speaker 1: 38:45

Yeah, that what you're saying. Right, there is a beautiful thing, and for many people that would be the result of a lot of personal healing that they needed to go through to get there.

Speaker 3: 38:54

Yeah, anyway, okay, the person who recommended us to you said she has been a big part of your Reconnection Club since she's met you and I said this in the intro she can breathe again. What does the Reconnection Club do? I know, doesn't that make you feel wonderful? What is the Reconnection Club? How can people join it? What do you do there? I know it's not you open a door and go into a club, so let's tell us what it is.

Speaker 1: 39:17

Right, right. Well, first of all, I want to extend my big thank you to that listener, because we really rely on members. It's hard to be found on the Internet, so I'm always glad and grateful when people talk about us, so thank you. The Reconnection Club is online. It's a website. I think of it as a school that's centered on a library of of educational materials and a forum for parents who are estranged from adult children. The library is full of educational materials courses, workshops, interviews. We have office hours every month, and what does that mean? That means I get on with our members.

Speaker 3: 39:56

Oh, you get on, okay, okay.

Speaker 1: 39:58

And take questions and so on, and we also have other live events. This year I started offering a validation workshop because validation is such a crucial skill in relationships. People are really excited to learn and practice validation. So live events, the library and the community of other parents. Our community, I'll say, is different from other online communities because we have pretty strict rules around us versus them. We don't bash estranged adult children. We don't have any fear-mongering allowed. It's as much as it can be. It's a safe and supportive and positive space. People do express emotions, like anger and sadness. That's totally allowed. All emotions are allowed. Do they give advice to each other? Yes, it's kind, it's amazing. I mean, I am blown away, frankly, by the respect and compassion and kindness that members express to each other in our forums. I'm so grateful to our members.

Speaker 3: 40:59

And so they would go to your website, which is Reconnectionclubcom, okay, and it's there that they would sign up, and I imagine there's a yearly fee or a monthly fee.

Speaker 1: 41:08

There's a monthly fee or a yearly fee, so currently it's $25 a month, $199 a year. I spend most of my time in and around the Reconnection Club producing materials and doing live events, so it is a part of my livelihood, which is the only reason that I charge for it.

Speaker 3: 41:27

Well, it's really pretty inexpensive because it's kind of like therapy, I mean, you're getting all this up-to-date thing, you're talking to others, you're getting you once a month where you would pay one session of therapy way more than $1.99.

Speaker 1: 41:41

Thank you for saying that.

Speaker 3: 41:43

Well, it's true, I know I've been there, done that. This has been wonderful. We have done a lot of episodes, but you've reinforced things and you've also brought up new. I hope everyone will love it. And now for your takeaways. We always ask our guests to give us two takeaways, and I know one of them you used before, but I think you need to repeat it because some people go right to the end to hear the two takeaways.

Speaker 1: 42:05

So takeaway one is that your relationship with yourself is the foundation of your relationship with your child or children. If there's a problem in your relationship with your child or children, it may indicate that there's something to look at within you, a way that maybe there's a disconnect inside or there's self-criticism, stuff that isn't whole, that doesn't quite come together within you. So it is never the wrong thing to focus on your relationship with yourself. I guess I would just sort of present a new idea here at the end.

Speaker 1: 42:38

Yeah good good. Estrangement is not about the past as much as it is a problem in the present. If your child complains that this thing happened when they were 13 and you were not good to them, your response is I really did my best, this was happening and that was happening. Then what's happening is right. At this moment, your child is experiencing themselves as not visible, not being seen, not being heard, not having their experience honored. That's a present problem. So estrangement can only be solved in the present, and that's the good news.

Speaker 3: 43:20

When your child says that to you, this happened when I was 13,. You weren't there for me. What should be the parent's response?

Speaker 1: 43:27

Just as your love and logic is.

Speaker 3: 43:29

Yeah, agree, ann, that's what I was wondering Because I would say I agree.

Speaker 1: 43:47

You must have really felt terrible and I should learn more about how I could have changed or what would have helped or how would you go. I would not agree if they say I was a jerk. You know I was a jerk, but I would ask for more information. Tell me more about that. It sounds like you were really. You know, reflect the emotions and everything, and I can completely understand that.

Speaker 3: 43:56

But you could agree and say I agree, you must feel terrible from that experience.

Speaker 1: 44:01

I would just say it's not necessary to agree with their feelings. Their feelings are. I mean, it's like I agree it's Monday. It may come across as a little bit, you know, by rote, especially if your child is not, yeah, if you're doing it all the time. If you're doing it all the time and your child isn't used to that from you, then it's like oh, mom took a course or something.

Speaker 3: 44:20

Okay, well, thank you so much.

Speaker 1: 44:23

Thank you, Denise.

Speaker 3: 44:26

This has been a great conversation, reconnectionclubcom, and I'll share all of that in my episode notes Really appreciate it, and I had thought at the beginning you were still in Denver, but you're in Vancouver. Enjoy that beautiful city.

Speaker 1: 44:38

I will Thank you so much.

Speaker 3: 44:44

Denise, all the best to you. Thank you. Well, that's a wrap. I really love Tina. I hope all of you did too.

Speaker 3: 44:46

What stood out to me is understanding estrangement. It doesn't always mean that you don't see your adult child they've cut you off but maybe you have hurt feelings during or after conversations and you have to take a little break or reassess your relationship. Those are trigger points and something to think about. Remember her steps stop and rest, research and then, depending on the situation, reach out. I think all of us need to work hard on how we approach our adult children and how what we say can sound kind of intrusive to them. Her book Reconnecting with your Estranged Adult Child is a great resource to start with your research. She has so many great ideas. We all need this, I think, estranged or not. And remember her Reconnection Club reconnectionclubcom. That's something that our listeners said was a godsend.

Speaker 3: 45:41

Just a reminder that we're not going to be doing episodes regularly, twice a month. We just really need a break. We're just covering topics and we've covered so many. It's a good idea to go back and re-listen, and that's part of your research too. If you suggest a topic or a guest, we may select it for one of these one-off episodes. I will be doing these myself. I'm certainly going to miss Kirsten, but I need to just move forward and this is the way I've decided to do it.

Speaker 3: 46:09

I want to thank Connie Gorn-Fisher, our audio and production engineer. She does such a great job. Please remember to write to us at biteyourtonguepodcast at gmailcom. Share your comments, give us ideas for guests and topics that you want us to cover, and those are the episodes we're going to do. Consider supporting us by going to our website, biteyourtonguepodcastcom. Buy us a virtual cup of coffee. It's just $5. And, last but not least, remember to follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Even though the episodes are not coming out as often, we still have costs to cover. So buying that virtual cup of coffee means so much to us. We've got costs for editing, hosting, social media, everything. There's all kinds of apps you have to keep paying for monthly to keep making this happen. We've had so much fun doing it. It means so much to us that you're listening. And remember I used to say sometimes you have to bite your tongue. But I'm going to say this time, after all these conversations remember, most of the time you have to bite your tongue.