Understanding Modern Parenting: A Grandparent's Guide to Support

This episode is a "must listen" for an parent of an adult child on the brink of welcoming a grandchild. 

We are thrilled to bring you a special episode with the wise and compassionate Kimberly Beppler, The Grandparent Doula.  

Kimberly enlightens us with her journey from assisting postpartum families to recognizing the irreplaceable role grandparents can play in this delicate phase. We uncover her innovative approach of crafting a "menu" of support options, ensuring grandparents provide meaningful help without stepping on toes. 

It's an episode of advice for those eager to strengthen family bonds while honoring the autonomy and boundaries of new parents.

Our conversation shifts to the fresh landscape of parenting and grandparenting, where emotional intelligence reigns supreme among millennials and Gen Z. This era demands a recalibration of old norms, as we explore the evolving expectations and challenges grandparents face today. Kimberly's insights highlight the delicate balance of offering support while respecting the independence and parenting styles of our children. Together, we navigate the fine line between being a source of wisdom and avoiding the imposition of outdated solutions, all while championing patience and empathy.

We also tackle the modern pressures surrounding parenting, with a focus on breastfeeding and the overwhelming sea of information new parents encounter. Balancing personal needs with familial responsibilities also takes center stage, as we share strategies for maintaining emotional and physical well-being, ensuring grandparents remain a vibrant and nurturing presence in the lives of their families. 

A special call out to a product we love: Curiocity Travel Guides. The greatest tool of discovery and keepsake for traveling with kiddos. Listen for more on today's episode. 

Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
Send all ideas to biteyourtonguepodcast@gmail.com. Remeber to follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Support US!  Visit our website at biteyourtonguepodcast.com and select

Chapters

• 0:03 Grandparent Doula Provides Insightful Advice
• 10:37 Navigating Grandparent-Parent Boundaries
• 19:31 Navigating Grandparent-Parent Interactions
• 29:48 Navigating Parent-Grandparent Relationship
• 38:24 Supporting Parents in Modern Breastfeeding
• 42:16 Navigating Modern Parenting Pressures
• 47:14 Balancing Support and Self-Care for Grandparents

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:03

Welcome to Bite your Tongue, the podcast, and happy February, happy Valentine's Day and it's my birthday month, so kind of exciting for me. I'm Denise, and while we may not be releasing episodes as frequently these days, we're still here to bring you valuable insights and conversations with experts to help you navigate and strengthen your relationships with your adult children. That's what Bite your Tongue is all about. Today's topic is especially close to my heart. If you caught our last episode in season four, you've heard the exciting news I'm going to be a grandma. Honestly, guys, I'm still processing it because I really never thought it would happen. And here we are Now. I want to make sure I get off on the right foot and hopefully it's helpful to all of you too.

Speaker 1: 0:53

So today we're going to talk all about grandparenting. I'm thrilled to have Kimberly Beppler with us. Kimberly is known as the grandparent doula. Yes, you heard that right. Kimberly is known as the grandparent doula. Yes, you heard that right grandparent doula. Her mission is to help grandparents become the loving, supportive and a non-intrusive presence in their grandchildren's lives and, of course, their adult children. So, without further ado, let's dive in. Kimberly, welcome to the show. We're so excited to have you here Now. You're the only one I could find that really deals with grandparents, so why did you decide to become a grandparent?

Speaker 2: 1:32

doula hearing the parent perspective for 25 years. And all of a sudden I was just literally sitting at my computer reading about postpartum and I thought I have spent the majority of my career trying to make a dent in what postpartum looks like for families. I just had sort of an epiphany moment to say how am I going to actually change postpartum like, really make a revolution in postpartum? And I thought we have to get the grandparents involved. They're the only ones with the resources, the love, the devotion that would dive in and do postpartum and if you look at it from historical perspective, that's what grandparents have always done. But we're kind of being excluded right now, which has long lasting repercussions. And so I just thought I need to change the perspective of grandparents to provide the postpartum care that sets families off and reduces depression and increases parent confidence, increases bonding, increases breastfeeding rates just like I've been doing for doulas but put it in the hands of these wise lovers of their children, devoted parents who want to make a difference but don't necessarily know how, because they were never taught to do that. I mean, postpartum care hasn't been present in our culture for four or five generations at least. But they're in collective cultures but it's not in our individualistic culture, and I thought this is what I got to do. I got to train the grandparents and then I thought this is what I got to do. I got to train the grandparents and then I thought how am I going to do that? Are they going to want to listen to me? I don't know.

Speaker 2: 3:08

And then I read Joshua Coleman's book about estrangement and it broke my heart to read it and I yet I thought this is the time. I've had this goal to bring parents and grandparents together for years, but I was so busy working as a doula, building up my doula agency, training new doulas I didn't really have the time and I just kind of had a step back moment and thought, if I'm going to help people avoid estrangement or heal estrangement, I have to start focusing on the people that have the time, the investment, the energy and who desire this so much and who are having their hearts broken. Because rarely are you hearing from grown kids and new parents that their hearts are broken, that they're estranged. They're usually the ones doing the estranging. The grandparents are the heartbroken ones. I thought this is the population I need to serve.

Speaker 1: 3:59

So let me ask you a quick, broad question. You know I'm going to be a grandmother in April. My daughter and her husband live quite a distance. If you were going to give me one piece of advice as I begin this journey, what would you say?

Speaker 2: 4:14

I would say make very specific offerings about what you can do and then let your grown kids pick from those offerings. We call it a menu. So basically, in my class, I teach the grandparents make a menu. Here's all the things you can do. Figure out what you want to do, offer it to your kids and let them choose from what you want to do, versus doing all the things that they might expect you to do or expecting them to want the things that you offer them. Be very clear about what you could do and what you want to do and then, when they give you feedback, be as positive as possible and do the things that matter to them and let the other things go, even though you might have really wanted to do it what sort of thing might a grandmother really want to do that the child might really not.

Speaker 1: 5:01

Maybe the child only wants help with cooking and cleaning and not touching the baby at all. Is that the kind of thing you're thinking about?

Speaker 2: 5:07

Very much, so I have a lot of grandparents who want to be in the delivery room.

Speaker 4: 5:10

They want to be there the first week.

Speaker 2: 5:12

They really, really want to help in a way that they can kiss the baby and connect with the baby, hold the baby. And parents are not looking for a lot of that support right now. They don't want their parents in the delivery room, they don't want them even there in the first week. They want to learn how to manage their baby without their parents so they can feel like they're doing it, especially that first baby. I find they're a little more amenable with the second and the third. The first one they really want to prove to themselves they can do it.

Speaker 2: 5:39

I find a lot of grandparents just waiting in the wings, like waiting for news and waiting for pictures and waiting to be invited, and they're they're not likely to be invited into those spaces. So to say, here's all the things I'd love to do in the form of a menu. Right, we never order everything on the menu. We pick the things that we want. So if we say here's some, here's some menu items I can do, and then your kids pick and then you just stick to the things they want, you might be really sad about the things that they don't want, but you don't really get to choose it, so you have to cope with it in every way that you can. I think being prepared in advance gives you time to let go of those things to say like they don't want me in the delivery room.

Speaker 2: 6:19

I really had it in my head that I was going to be there and this where I wanted to be, and you just have a chance to let go of that and say this isn't where they want me, I'm not going to. I'm not going to have this moment. I'm going to have to have other moments that matter to me.

Speaker 1: 6:32

I'm just going to tell you what happened in my situation. I really respected exactly what you said. My daughter and her husband said they really want some time at the beginning and she was due late April. She said I the beginning and she was due late April. She said I'd love you to come. A few weeks later I made flights to go in May. Then a couple of weeks ago she said you know what, mom, I think I really want you there before the baby's born Now, not to go to the delivery room, not to help. But she said you're the only person I can trust to take care of the dog, take care of the house. When we leave, they don't have any family there. So I'm starting to feel like I'm so glad to be asked. But then I realized I said so. Then when you come home from the hospital, you want me to leave. And she was sort of silent. But is that common? I mean, does that feel overly demanding to you? Nope, that's very very common.

Speaker 2: 7:20

Absolutely Especially with a first time couple, especially when they're having babies a little bit later, like in their 30s. They have a very established life. They're not leaning on their parents for very many things at that point. They often have pets that they love, like their children, and so for you to care for their pets feels like you're loving the grandbabies, because they don't have babies yet and they don't really know the difference between a pet and a baby. That is their baby and their real baby arrives and they're like oh wow, you're a pet. Take some realization of the love that you have for a human. That really is meaningful to them. That's like you coming and caretaking for their older kids and it brings their anxiety down.

Speaker 2: 8:00

Because one of the biggest things I hear from postpartum parents I'm a bad dog mom, I'm a bad cat mom, I'm not loving my pets Because they've got what five, ten years invested in those pets, Like they've been an outpouring of their love, and now they give all that to their baby and they're trying to hold it together. They feel like you're loving them that way. So, yeah, I don't think that's too demanding. I think that's too demanding. I think that's pretty common, Pretty common and I would say that speaks to their value, right? Their value is make sure my home is okay and not all food in my refrigerator is rotting if we're in the hospital for three days, Right, right.

Speaker 2: 8:33

But I would also say from a grandparent perspective, putting you in the vicinity of where your kids are when their babies first come home means you have umpteen more opportunities to support them when they decide that they need it. If you are far away and can't, they're not going to have you fly in, but if you're in a friends and things are falling apart, bingo, you are in. Right. They're going to be like mom, come back, we need you. And now you have the opportunity to be needed, maybe in a way that you want to be. And I think if you're creating that distance, you wouldn't be utilized and then you might miss out on some really cool memories where your kids really do need you and you get to kind of swoop in and be the helper and be the snuggler.

Speaker 1: 9:19

How has the role of grandparenting changed today versus previous generations that you'd like us, as grandparents, to understand?

Speaker 2: 9:27

Yeah, this is the biggest shock for a lot of the grandparents in my classes. Is they really sort of think of the way grandparenting was for them, right? Maybe a relationship they have with their grandparents or maybe the way that they saw their kids being grandparented by their own parents and we have this huge respect and admiration and honor for older generations and that is not present in our culture.

Speaker 1: 9:51

Well, joshua Coleman I think it was either Joshua Coleman or Larry Steinberg said gone are the days of honor. They father and mother.

Speaker 2: 9:58

Yep, and now the respect is going toward the grown kids and I would say it's not equal respect, it is more respect, more respect for the kids than for the older generations. And while I understand the mindset that brings that, it's not the mindset we grew up with, it's not the mindset we experienced, it's not the mindset we showed to our older generation. So we're kind of getting screwed, basically because we had to give respect to the other generations and now we have to give respect to our kids and we're like respect.

Speaker 1: 10:31

Why has this happened? I think about holidays. What has changed?

Speaker 2: 10:37

I get asked this a lot and I'm not a sociologist, I'm not a psychologist, but what I can say is the awareness of emotional intelligence has grown significantly in millennials and Gen Z, and now that they're having kids, they're looking at what's really integral to those kids and they're saying this is the most important thing. The way my parents feel is not important. This is important, and the way I'm going to do this well is by having support, not by giving, not by thinking about others. That's the only way that I've made sense of it, because it seems so selfish and entitled to think you're the only one that matters in a relationship, right? But I also think we grew our kids in a fairly peaceful time. We devoted our attention to their self-esteem, we didn't raise as gritty a generation because we didn't have gritty circumstances.

Speaker 2: 11:31

I grew up on a farm and had to do chores and I was working outside. Right, my kids grew up in the suburbs and emptied the dishwasher and vacuum. It's just a different. They aren't as gritty. I mean they're amazing, but they're. That's just not who they are and I'm to blame, right? I wanted to solve all their problems. I was that helicopter or lawnmower or whatever parent that is now judged very heavily for all this love and attention.

Speaker 1: 11:57

I'm dying to know what this next generation is going to do. But also, we were probably the first generation that had therapists in our children's lives. I'm shocked how many kids are in therapy starting in elementary school. So they're learning all of this boundaries and self-awareness and all that kind of stuff. I didn't even know what a boundary was when I started this podcast and they're really not the way that they've been taught, the way their exercise is.

Speaker 2: 12:20

Walls, gates, you know, unbreakable fence. A boundary is not that. A boundary is if you do this, then I will do this. Right it's. I'm trying to protect myself, but the way boundaries are used a lot for grandparents is you will not, you cannot do not, and that's really trying to control someone else's behavior, which doesn't sit well with us as parents and grandparents. Right, we don't want to be told how to do it. We raised those kids, we earned it and we shouldn't have to be told you have to, you can't. Except that we really want to honor what their wishes are and it really helps them to feel like they have control over one aspect. When newborns really don't give you much control over anything, right, it's a this world shock of I'm. In my career, I know how to orchestrate things, I can delegate, I can make decisions. Now, all of a sudden, you have this helpless baby that you love, with everything in you that you can't make do anything. You can't make them sleep in the bassinet.

Speaker 2: 13:23

You cannot make them feed the way you want. You don't have the schedule control. Their world is turned upside down and they need us, but they also don't have any capacity for looking at what's important for us, because they just they just need our help and so we have to kind of manage our own needs outside of getting them to recognize that, and that that's hard, that's really hard as a grandparent to think. I served and I laid down my life at raising you and then you were on your own. Yay, I made you independent. Good job. And now you need me again.

Speaker 2: 13:55

Like when is the part where you just give me the baby and let me hold them, and then you tell them that I'm a great grandparent and I'm doing great Like when is the part that we get to rest and not work?

Speaker 2: 14:06

Because it kind of feels like we're being pulled in both directions. Right, if we have living parents, we're probably doing some caregiving for the parents, and if we have grandkids, we might be doing some caregiving for our kids or our grandkids. It just feels like when do we get the joy, like the ease and the joy? And so I see a lot of grandparents who are pretty ticked off that this is the culture that we live in, and yet the recognition for postpartum makes us refocus to say this isn't a population that can see us right now, the world that they're in is very it's small, right.

Speaker 2: 14:40

It's their chest and their arms, it's their breastfeeding, their breasts and their heart and that's all the capacity they have. So we can want them to honor us, but they really can't, especially in those first three months or so. I find this to be a huge conflict point that grandparents want the respect. Grown kids, new parents, want respect and basically demand it.

Speaker 1: 15:05

I think if we look back to how we felt when we first had those babies, it is overwhelming and you're stressed out completely and once again you want their relationship to stay intact, but they still need someone to take their angst out completely. And once again, you want their relationship to stay intact, but they still need someone to take their angst out on. I think if we can be that pillar of strength and realize they're going to be short with us they're going to be not as tolerant as they should be and just get through it without letting it affect our self-esteem, we're probably going to have a better relationship down the road.

Speaker 2: 15:38

I think if we practice that as parents, where we let them solve their own problems and we let them deal with that frustration, tolerance, we're probably going to be better at as grandparents. So now I have to have them do that in their adult years and say, yeah, that's really hard and that's so hard, and then not think I can fix it for you because you can't as a parent of adult kids. You have to let them solve their problems unless they're coming to you to ask. I think with postpartum in particular, they don't know how to ask, they don't know what you can do and they don't really want to act vulnerable because they want to prove that they can do it. They can do it, yeah, and they can do it, but they're going to do it better with support.

Speaker 2: 16:18

The research is very clear. There's plenty of evidence. They do better with support. They're more successful, they get better sleep, they like each other more, they like their baby more, they're more confident in their own instincts, they breastfeed more successfully and they have less depression if there's support. It's very clear and right now the pressure on new parents is unlike anything we've ever experienced.

Speaker 4: 16:43

There's so much more anxiety.

Speaker 2: 16:45

There's so much more fear. I mean, I would say new parents are terrified. I teach baby care and breastfeeding classes in the hospital and I ask them how they're feeling about babies and they're like we just don't know if we can do it. It's such a scary time and it's so dangerous and we're just so, so scared that we what if we don't do it? Well, and they have to go to therapy all the time? And what if we screw it up? What if we're toxic? And they're worried about carrying the load of feeding and how they're going to deal with broken sleep, and they're just much more aware of the pressure. And I think also none of us parented with the internet right.

Speaker 1: 17:17

I was going to say do you think it's the internet?

Speaker 2: 17:25

I absolutely do, because now our psyche has to deal with the ills of the world instead of the ills of the small circle around us and the drama in our families or in our communities. We had to go to the library if we wanted to learn something. Now it's shouting at you from everything You've got to protect yourself. Don't you know about this danger? And oh, have you worried about this? And there's a health scare, and that there's toxic. This. Parents have never had this much overload of information and I honestly think it's way too much. It's way too much for them to connect with their baby and know what's important. Where we had a lot of downtime to do that, we have a lot of time to listen to our own heart and go.

Speaker 2: 17:57

You know, I think this kid needs this. With babies there's not a lot of commonality Like we all love them, but the way we care for them is completely different depending on our culture and our beliefs. There's so many discrepancies and controversies in the baby world, even as a professional. Like people say, how do you do it? It? I'm like there's so many ways to do it right. There's lots of ways.

Speaker 1: 18:17

There's not one right way so I wish they could understand that, because some of the things I've heard from my friends that are grandparents is the rules are so strict like nope, my child can't have a pacifier or there can't be any screens for the first three years of their life or four years of their life, and grandpa accidentally shows the four-year-old a play a football play on his cell phone.

Speaker 2: 18:49

And the parents go bananas. It's really hard. It is, and parents are getting good information to do these things, but the flexibility they have when it doesn't go well is really difficult and I have to think that's coming from an area of pressure, right. Showing screens to babies has pretty bad research, according to it. So parents are really strict about it and to feel like there's no flexibility and then grandpa breaks the rule they're being so strict and disciplining themselves so much and then grandpa doesn't do it, like it feels like cheating, like oh, I've been, I don't. It's a hard thing to do to not show them screens, and but I can do it and you can't. I also think that's you got to give grandpa some grace, right? That's what I feel like, I guess.

Speaker 1: 19:31

I get torn between two working couples. Many of my friends are doing at least three times a week childcare, some doing five days a week, so they're exhausted and then the kid gets down on them because their two-year-old had a Tootsie Pop or something.

Speaker 2: 19:47

I think the most important thing when you're dealing with a conflict is you?

Speaker 2: 19:51

have to validate their concern. You have to say I know I screwed up. I didn't mean that tootsie pop. It was a moment of breakdown. I'm sorry. I knew it was equal quiet and I needed quiet in my brain and so I just gave it to them. And we have to be vulnerable to say I value what you value. I know you don't want your child to have sugar, you don't want those artificial colors. I see how important this is to you. I want to value that too. I'm sorry I broke your trust.

Speaker 2: 20:20

It was a moment of weakness but I think it's okay to say I'm probably going to have more of those Because I'm doing this thing that you know it's hard physically in your 60s and 70s, especially to do what you can do in your 20s and 30s and 40s.

Speaker 2: 20:36

It's just easier to get up and run around and get up and down off the floor a million times and have your sleep broken and like you're a more flexible person. But as we age, we become less flexible, and so when we're asked to do something that continually demands from us, there's going to be breakdown. There just is. And of course, parents are going to do it too. But I think the first thing you have to say is I trust what you're asking me. I know you're doing this because you think this is the best thing and I am not trying to go against what you think. I just like I forgot. And then I showed the kid the video and then I realized, oh, and you have to be accountable to be letting them down, and that's really hard for us. We don't want to be accountable. It's super vulnerable and it feels like they're judging us as parents.

Speaker 2: 21:26

We laid our life down for our kids. We sacrificed a ton and we want them to see that, but what they need in that moment, because they're so incensed, is for us to see where they're what they're experiencing. I see you being really disappointed. I broke the screen rule. I get it. This is really important to you and I want to follow what's important to you. I'll try to do this better. Blah, blah, blah. Or can we make a plan where there's some compromise that makes it a little bit easier for me?

Speaker 3: 21:54

for whatever, because we.

Speaker 2: 21:56

We are finite beings, and the older we get, the more finite we are. We have limitations, we have capacities and we love to be everything perfectly all the time, just like new parents would be. But we're not going to do that.

Speaker 4: 22:09

We're going to let them down.

Speaker 2: 22:10

And then we have to be accountable that we let them down, because if we're not, that escalates quickly. Kids need us to be accountable to them, which is also new. That's totally new, because, let me tell you, I do not make my parents accountable to me ever.

Speaker 1: 22:25

I just don't get it. I don't get it, so I brought up two things screens and sugar. Are there other things you see that we should be aware of in modern parenting Germs?

Speaker 2: 22:38

Say that again Germs and vaccine.

Speaker 4: 22:40

Germs and vaccines.

Speaker 2: 22:41

One of the biggest things right now is not kissing the baby. A lot of new parents do not want anybody other than them kissing the baby, and this is really hard for grandparents, because they're incredibly kissable and you may have waited a really long time for that grandbaby and you just want to do it so it. So you have to kind of turn off your instincts, and then vaccines can be a really big dividing factor.

Speaker 1: 23:02

I've had letters on that.

Speaker 2: 23:04

Yes. So grandparents are usually required to get a certain amount of vaccines or have their vaccines updated, and this is really hard because it crosses this line of self-health care, having other people make those decisions for you, or basically having restrictions if you don't have the vaccines. So that's a point of contention I can see, and lately I mean I hate to say it and we don't have to get into it but politics plays a role too. I'm seeing a lot of parents have different political views than their parents. The young parents to their older parents and sometimes they don't want those negative influences in their child's life have different political views than their parents, the young parents to their older parents, and sometimes they don't want those negative influences in their child's life which seems ridiculous to us because we're like can we not all coexist, having different opinions about things?

Speaker 2: 23:48

This seems very reasonable in a world we've always done, but the more aware the millennials and Gen Z are, the more they want an environment that's conducive to something that's important to them, which is harmony. If you have people who are disagreeing all the time at a high level of conflict, they often don't want that around them, and they often don't want that around their kids. I'm seeing that as a dividing line too, and our kids cannot expect us to change our political views because of something they believe. Our kids cannot expect us to change our political views because of something they believe, and yet we have to somehow buffer that influence if we want to be around their kids and we do.

Speaker 1: 24:24

A lot of my episodes have talked about look in the mirror. We can have different views, but we can't be Archie Bunker. Yeah, it's not healthy for anyone.

Speaker 2: 24:37

And it really doesn't invite more relationship and that's the way I think of it with grandparents is it's really the actions you take and the words you choose either invite more relationship or close down more relationship, and so we have to be motivated to continually open that relationship if we want access to grandbabies because they give us so much joy and we want that. Everyone has said that it's unbelievable. I thought, of course that'll be great. I didn't really understand when grandparents would say oh, we just get to love them, and give them back.

Speaker 2: 25:06

Ha ha ha ha. And I thought what they meant was like we can spoil and we don't have to follow the rules. We can do whatever they want. But what I realized, having my own grandchild, was it isn't so much that I'm going to break any rules, it's that I get a whole human to delight in that I don't have any responsibility for. I don't have to lay awake at night thinking did I do this thing? Is he going to?

Speaker 2: 25:27

be, okay as an adult, am I doing it all right? I have kids who are very capable. They are parenting him beautifully. I get to borrow him, I get to enjoy him and then I get to give him back and I don't have to think about him. I can go off to work and I can go to sleep and I don't have to. I don't have to pay the price that I had to pay as a parent. But I still get a lot of the joy and that part I I don't feel like people articulate it like that Like all the joy without the responsibility.

Speaker 2: 25:55

That's a dream, right? If you had that as a parent, if everybody helped you take care of your kid and everybody helped you with the finances and everybody helped you with the house and the chores, having a baby would be pretty delightful. But of course that wasn't how it was for most of us. Right, we had our kids, there weren't a lot of people around, we learned to figure out how to do it and we did it. And now we get a little criticized for how we did it, because our kids know I've got every you know social and psychological approach in the world because it's out there on the internet and they can say why did you do it this way? This wasn't, this isn't what I wanted.

Speaker 1: 26:28

I wish you would have raised me like this?

Speaker 2: 26:30

Yeah, well, me too, but it wasn't available Right.

Speaker 1: 26:38

So, listeners, we're going to take a quick break from talking to Kimberly, because I recently came across this very cool product. It's all about travel and engaging kids in travel. I came across these guides. They're called Curiosity Travel Guides. It's spelled C-U-R-I-O city, but it's pronounced curiosity. Very creative, huh? I love that. Now, what are they? They're interactive travel guides designed for families traveling with kids. Right now, there are two cities available London and Paris, and they're making family trips truly unforgettable. And what I really like is they're not techie. I was so impressed that I wanted to send the guide to Ellen, my original co-host and psychologist, to get her perspective, both as a grandmother, but also as a psychologist someone that works with young people and I wanted to get her idea of what she thought about them. And then, for a special surprise, I reached out to the creator of these, melissa Manassi, and she's going to join us too. So stay tuned. So, ellen, I sent them to you. What are your thoughts on these? Do so, stay tuned. So, ellen, I sent them to you. What?

Speaker 4: 27:37

are your thoughts on these? Do you like them as much as I do? I totally do. I wanted to book a trip to Paris as soon as I got the Paris one. There's so many things I like about it. First of all are truly interactive and they're a keepsake, so it's hard to explain what they're like.

Speaker 1: 27:52

You did a great job of it, but you can see inside, find hidden things. And what are the three most interesting things you saw today? What are weird things you saw today? Even my son, who hated writing, would have hated it.

Speaker 4: 28:04

And then I started thinking, like, not really, this is the sort of thing we've got to get out of, especially when we're thinking about being grandparents that they react to us very differently than they do to their parents.

Speaker 4: 28:26

They want to do things with us. If we have a grandson who is 10 and hates writing, but you like it and he loves spending time with you, which they do it's a way for you to give them a keepsake that you do together. I first picked it up and thought this is great for the right kind of kid and then, in thinking about this as a larger family community, it's just a great way for a family to put their memories on paper. Not to mention, it's just a great guide to a city, like, honestly, I would use it myself to sort of figure out, oh yeah, what are the restaurants to go to or the more sites to go to, to think about it as a way of sparking communications and even with a kid who might not be the most verbal 13-year-old, it's a way to open up discussions and organize the kinds of things that you want to talk about and remember. So I thought it was fabulous.

Speaker 1: 29:20

Well, I'm glad you did, and the real surprise is we've got Melissa with us. You've never met her, ellen, but I tracked her down and I want to know, melissa, how did you come across this idea, why did you do it and what do you hope?

Speaker 3: 29:33

others get from it. Well, first off, denise, thank you for that review and excellent summary of it. And Ellen, I'll take you to Paris anytime you want. Great, I'll bring the berets, no problem. This book came out. You know they always say authors write the book that they wish that they had.

Speaker 3: 29:54

And, given my husband's job, when our kids were really little, we had the opportunity to travel internationally quite a bit. But the source of this book came from as an academic, where I studied all of the theories and concepts of international and intercultural communication combined with being a mom to three little kids. Communication combined with being a mom to three little kids when we were roaming the streets of a great city in the world, any great city. You know, your motivation can only take you so far. I designed these books because I wanted something to inspire questions between the parents and the young adventurers, the kids. As I say, these guides don't tell you where to go so much as what to do when you get there. The other thing that inspired this book is we would go on these great trips. I'd come home, we would put the refrigerator magnet on the refrigerator and done, and then I'm like, okay, so now, what do we do? What do we do with all this travel?

Speaker 3: 30:59

The book was designed in really three main parts. One, how do you prepare to go on a trip, but how do you get your young person excited about going to one of these big cities? And by doing that you really need to put them in the driver's seat to both inspire and ignite curiosity. Then, with the book, it's the questions to ask when you get to the site. So, using the Paris book as an example, most of the kids have seen a video, a TikTok, whatever of the Eiffel Tower. One of my main purposes of this book was these kids have seen all these things. Rather than going up, taking a picture with your iPhone, quickly posting it on Instagram and then waiting impatiently, how many likes can all my friends get back at home? It's, don't take a picture of the Eiffel Tower. Instead, turn around and take a look at the tourists.

Speaker 3: 32:01

The middle section meat and potatoes of the book is learning how to approach travel in a way that leads with questions rather than leads with the posting on Instagram. The last 25% of the book is all about okay, now what we're home. What do we do with this travel? I offer questions, ideas, activities of ways of bringing the travel back into your hometown, because travel changes us and it's supposed to.

Speaker 3: 32:35

Lastly, the kind of the piece de resistance, shall we say, and the thing that I love about it, so going very old school with the mementos that they would add into the book. So not only does the book help you prepare for travel, it gives you ideas and support when you, as the parent, are exhausted. It gives you ideas on bringing the travel back, and then it also creates a great keepsake that the kids will refer to long after the jet lag has subsided. I love that. So how can people get this? You can order it most easily off of my website, which is Curiosity Travel Guides and, as you said, it's curiocitytravelguidescom. You can get it off of Amazon. We're in about 15 different bookstores and gift shops in the Denver area. You can get it at Beacon Hill Bookstore in Boston, but the easiest way is just to click and get it off of the website.

Speaker 1: 33:40

Well, thank you Melissa. Thank you, ellen. It was great to get your perspective. Ellen, let's get back to today's episode with Grandmother Dula. How old is your grandson? He's a year and a half. Oh, how fun. You think they're doing a great job at parenting. What does the grandparent do that feels like the mom wants to have a home birth, but maybe it really goes against this mother, thinking this baby's going to die, or they just want to have a home birth, and maybe the mother had a really complicated birth and thinks you're crazy. How do you continually bite your tongue if you don't think they're doing the parenting the right way?

Speaker 2: 34:15

or not. I don't have an easy answer, but I would say I would say two things. First, I would say deal with how you feel about it. Vent to someone not your kid, but vent to someone. Get a therapist, get a friend, talk to someone who you can say I think this is crazy and blah, blah, blah and blah. Let it all out there and then process really, what is it that's holding you back, like what is it? Is it the fear? Is it worry? Is it your own trauma? Because a lot of us have trauma that's unresolved, because we never even thought we could deal with our trauma. We thought we just had to get tougher and do it anyway right.

Speaker 2: 34:50

but now that we have avenues to deal with trauma, get a therapist, do some meditation, do some prayer, figure out how we really feel about this, because those the way we feel is going to influence how much impact we have in their life, how much relationship we get, and the more negative we feel, the more there's going to influence how much impact we have in their life, how much relationship we get, and the more negative we feel, the more there's going to be higher walls and bigger boundaries. So that'd be the first thing I would say is I think that's an absolutely legitimate concern, but they should deal with that away from the kids. And second, I would say, once you've got kind of a handle, at least you can recognize how you're feeling. Be curious about what your kids want when. Recognize how you're feeling, be curious about what your kids want.

Speaker 2: 35:28

When you're curious, you show that you trust them and you can start to say, oh, I can see why you'd want that. Oh, I can. This seems you want a home birth because it's a really intimate experience and you don't want to be in the hospital with 16 to 20 strangers looking at all your body and you don't feel safe there. Or maybe you lost someone and the hospital represents death to you, but home represents life. I see that that makes sense. You don't have to agree with it, but you can say I can see why you'd want that. And now you're putting your trust in your kids. And the funniest thing I've found as a doula because I haven't had tons.

Speaker 2: 36:03

My kids are only 20 and 25. So I haven't had tons and tons of adult children experience. But as a doula, what I've seen is I agree with my clients quickly. Whatever they say. I say, yeah, okay, let's do that. That sounds like a great plan and sometimes in my heart I'm like this is not a good plan.

Speaker 3: 36:19

It's not going to work and you think it's going to work.

Speaker 2: 36:21

It's not going to work and you know what, sometimes I'm wrong and exactly what they want to do works perfectly, even though I know the evidence against it. I've had thousands of babies that I've worked with that have not done that. I know it wouldn't work, but sometimes it does and it really helps me to be more open and go. You know, there's just a lot of ways to do this. But even when it doesn't, even when they basically make a decision that I'm like okay, we'll try that inside my head, but outwardly I'm like, okay, let's do it.

Speaker 2: 36:49

When I come the next visit I'll say, yeah, we tried that. It didn't work at all, but they're willing to be vulnerable because I was willing to believe in them.

Speaker 2: 36:57

I was like sure, let's give this a try. If they fail at it, I say, okay, well, what do we want to do now? What makes sense to you now? And they said, well, we're going to do it this way, Great. And then I get on board with that and maybe that's a good avenue, or maybe it's not. But the quicker you agree, the more included you are.

Speaker 2: 37:14

And the more they're willing to say gosh, we really we didn't make a good call on that one. Yeah, we all do that. That's, that's parenting. It's really hard and you're going to make some wrong calls, but you know what Research shows you only have to get it right 50% of the time with babies to build this like lasting, beautiful bond with your child. So it's okay, you got 50% to screw up. I just find that if you're really stuck, things are going to break. But if you stay flexible and let your grown kids who've probably really thought this out they've done a lot of research they have a lot behind this decision, even if it goes against everything you've always believed if it's important to them, you kind of got to get on board and trust them. And the more you trust them, the more involved they're going to have you.

Speaker 1: 38:01

Let's talk about these early weeks. You come to visit maybe the second or third week and they're really struggling with, say, breastfeeding or sleep. I'm a little worried about this personally. They're struggling with breastfeeding. How to be supportive and not want to say, well, take the baby and do this. Are there approaches that you use that we should learn to help them sort of navigate this?

Speaker 2: 38:24

The biggest difference in breastfeeding I think has happened. Uh, happened in 1985 because we had professional lactation consultants that were board certified, trained and certified in 1985.

Speaker 2: 38:35

And now every hospital has them. The breastfeeding rates in 85 were, I don't know, 25 or 30% and they're 83% now. So the vast majority of everyone is breastfeeding, which means we're going to have more problems, more complications. There's the people who were breastfeeding in the seventies, eighties, nineties were people who were doing it because it was manageable. It was easy enough to do. Maybe not easy, but manageable. Right, it resolved itself. The people who are breastfeeding now is almost everyone. So there's all kinds of families that have. They been. In the seventies, eighties, they would just stop breastfeeding in formula fit because that was so acceptable. Then the vast majority of people formula fit. Now the vast majority of people breastfeed. If you have a problem and you can't easily overcome it, you have tons of avenues to fix it, where I think the grandparents come in and say well, I did this, try this. What they're suggesting was an easy enough solution that made it work for them, but the solution for their kids might be way more complicated. And then I would just say bring in a professional and get on board with that

Speaker 2: 39:38

person and what the parents want to do with a professional Cause. The parents don't always love what the professionals say. I'm a lactation consultant too and sometimes they're like, eh, we don't really like this plan. I'm like, all right, let's, what can you do? Let's change the plan. But I would say with grandparents, the best thing to do would be to listen to the experts and read their kids really well, like if the experts say, here's this plan, you got to pump 12 times a day and you got to store your milk and here's what you got to do and the grandparents are like there's no way they're going to do that.

Speaker 2: 40:06

And then the kids come and go this is overwhelming. Say, okay, we got this plan. What? What do you like about it? What do you not like about it? Because grandparents who breastfed they understand the concept right. They know the more you breastfeed, the more milk you make. Like they got the basics down. It's not like you have to teach them, but the nuance of like pump flanges are all. There's like 18 pump flange sizes now.

Speaker 2: 40:29

There's 30 different pump companies. They all make five to 10 different pumps. So the amount of overload to get. Oh, and there's three different shapes of pump flanges too. So how could you possibly know that all of these things have happened in the last 30 years? And even the pump flange sizes only got research last December, last December 2024.

Speaker 2: 40:49

Things are changing so quickly it's impossible for grandparents to be up to date enough to say oh, I read this thing about tongue tie and I hear there's exercises you can do to reduce tension. Yeah, lactation consultants know that. But an average grandparent who was an accountant or a marketing manager doesn't know anything about that and shouldn't be expected to. So when they say just do this or just do this, it sounds like a simplification of a problem that like they don't believe their child is working hard enough.

Speaker 2: 41:20

Parents do not like that judgment. They feel that's a pushy approach, even though all the grandparent is trying to do is say well, I got through it. I believe you can too. So that's what I would say. Rather than trying to fix it, I would say I know you to be a resilient, determined, creative problem solver. I know you're going to get through this and I'm going to be here to help you whatever you need. I believe in you. Let's go see that lactation consultant and see what kind of plan we can get rather than well I know, with me. I just did.

Speaker 2: 41:53

That feels so pushy, even though I know it is not meant that way, but that's how it's received. I found that to be such a roadblock for grandparents because they're like I know I could get her to do it if she just would, but as a lactation consultant, I can tell you if that approach would work. She probably already tried it and it didn't work. And now she's like I need a higher level of problem solving and it's available so she can get it. Plus, by the time someone sees a lactation consultant, they've probably read 25 articles online. They've watched hundreds of reels on TikTok or Instagram. We have tons of overload. Maybe it's this, maybe it's this, maybe it's this. And how can their brain when you're postpartum, sort through all that.

Speaker 1: 42:35

It's so overwhelming. Oh gosh, I that's you know, I never thought of all that information coming at them. That sounds like hell to me. To be honest with you, it's not fun, I will say.

Speaker 2: 42:43

a lot of parents are not choosing to have kids because of all this pressure. So our birth rate's actually going down. So part of being a grandparent, I think, is you need to celebrate the fact that your legacy is going on, because there's lots of generations that their legacy is not going on and where you might be unhappy about the way it's being done. You kind of got to be grateful that it's being done because you could be in that situation where you have no grandkids and that's just the rest of your life and you know what? That's a huge chunk of joy that you're missing out on. That you're going to have to carve out some other way, because if you don't get grandkids, I mean that's the biggest sorts of joy people say in retirement, bigger than anything. I just mean if you look at grandparents and they chart to tell you what's most joyful, they will tell you the grandkids are right up there.

Speaker 1: 43:29

It'd be really hard, as a mother who breastfed, to have your daughter say I'm not breastfeeding. Yeah, it would be, and how do you deal with that?

Speaker 2: 43:40

You vent to the people who can hear you, because that's not your daughter.

Speaker 2: 43:45

You vent to people who can say, ouch, that looks like a slap in your face. After all the work you did to breastfeed, why is your daughter doing this? It sounds hurtful and let people grieve over what they're missing, because if you were expecting to pass that on and you wanted your grandchild breastfed and they choose not to or can't't, whatever, there's going to be grief, and grief is worthy of space and processing. But trying to change that not going to happen. Nothing you do will change the outcome of what the decision that the parents will make and if you try to change it will make. And if you try to change it, estrangement is a possibility.

Speaker 2: 44:29

So while I think that's an absolutely valid concern for a grandparent, there's no avenue that's safe to say it to your grown kids. Maybe later, at some point, when that child is healthy and grown, they can say, oh, I wanted that baby breastfed so badly, but look how amazing you did with formula, look at what a great kid they turned out. I trust you so much. And you might not be able to say it in the moment, but I would challenge grandparents to get to the point where they can say that, because it's really going to mean a lot to those parents because everyone is telling them to breastfeed. Everyone, every research study, every doctor, every obstetrician, every pediatrician is going to tell them to breastfeed. And if they choose not to, they've chosen it for a reason, and it might not seem like a good reason, but it is to them and I can understand the sadness that might come.

Speaker 1: 45:17

When they wanted to and can't, then that's an emotional. You have to be supportive. If they just make a hard, fast choice, too much trouble for me.

Speaker 2: 45:29

I'm not doing it. I'd have to really work on biting my tongue, I would say. As a lactation consultant, I see people where they beat their head against the wall to try to breastfeed and try and try and try and try and end up with depression and anxiety and taking meds. Really, the outcome would have been much better had they chosen formula from the beginning, because they could have started building their own parenting instincts and just believing in themselves. People say oh, you're not supposed to be so supportive of formula.

Speaker 2: 45:49

You know, what I am. Supportive of parents first, that's exactly right. Right, lactation is a skill I have, but my goal is for parents to trust themselves. You need that when you're raising kids. You've got to be able to trust your own instincts and right now our world is ripping instincts away by burdening parents with tons of anxiety and pressure. And I think we have to get to the core of saying this baby came to me Like. I get to make the choices about it and people trust me and I'm going to do a good job and I'm the right parent for this baby. And that's more important to me than if they formula, feed or schedule their babies or yeah, a lot of people are scheduling C-sections and things like that.

Speaker 1: 46:30

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 46:31

Yep, yep, and even scheduling their like behavior. They'll have a whole schedule that they do with their baby and I think, okay, that's not very organic in terms of seeing what the baby is, but you know what, it works really well for some babies. Okay, you know, there's a, there's a way to be able to see it without um criticizing. No, I get that, but I I have had the joy of getting to see that with thousands and thousands of parents. Even when they do it the way I would not have chosen to do it, I see the outcome. So I have this like breaking off of my hard, hard and fast things because of all these experiences and grandparents often haven't had that. You know that's a benefit that I've seen families be a million different ways and have it be beautiful and loving, interesting.

Speaker 1: 47:14

So one of the hardest things is when you do live far away, and I hear a lot of differing things. A lot of people say rent an Airbnb, have your own space, don't be on top of them. Not everyone can afford this. You're flying to the destination, you want to stay a couple of weeks, or maybe they even want you to help with childcare a month or whatever it is, so that the child doesn't have to go to childcare so early. How do you balance not being in their way if you have to stay with them?

Speaker 2: 47:41

The best approach I've seen is I call it on hours and off hours. So basically you think about it like a job, right? You have to show up to work, being rested, being nourished, hydrated, take care of your own needs You're on and then, when you're off, you get your downtime. You get to exercise, you get to eat what you want or cook what you want, or read or have downtime. When you're on, you can't think about all your needs. You have to be on, but when you're off, you really do need to take care of everything. And I think sometimes the on hours for grandparents are about three to four hours at a time, and not eight hours or 12 hours or 14 hours.

Speaker 2: 48:20

And we have to look at our body capabilities. If what we need is an hour in the morning to get up and read the news and to have coffee and to go to the bathroom and take a shower and whatever like, we need an hour of downtime. Well, infants do not allow you such luxuries. We've all done that and part of what we like about our life is we've curated it the way that works for us. We eat the way that works the best. We exercise the way that works for us. We eat the way that works the best, we exercise the way that works the best.

Speaker 2: 48:47

So when you shut all that off and just focus on an infant, you start falling apart, right? You start not getting your own needs met, you don't have any downtime, you're not sleeping enough, you're not eating in the right way, you're not exercising. All of a sudden, you're just not so happy. Your body's not working that well. So I really say think of it like a job, do everything you need to do on your off hours and carve out the things that you need. So if you're in another city but you do yoga twice a week, go find the yoga classes and do them twice a week. If you're going to be there for a couple of weeks because you can live without yoga for a week, but by week three you're ticked off and you have nowhere for that angst to go.

Speaker 2: 49:24

Right, it's really about, I think, carving out the time and being really selfless when you're on, but being really selfish when you're off, because otherwise we're not strong to be there for our kids.

Speaker 1: 49:35

If you have to stay with them, would you say that for the hours you're on, you're around and about because you're working with the baby, but when you're off you're either out or in your room and you give them the space that they need? New parents need a lot of space to.

Speaker 2: 49:51

It's just a slow pace and I think for grandmas especially, we're like we're doing stuff, like we're cleaning and organizing and shopping and cooking and prepping, and that's hard work for us, but the the space of a baby is slow. It's recognize the moments and be in the moment, and so the work we do around parents can be really busy, but when we're in that moment with the baby, we need to be slow, we need to be able to recognize, and I don't think we can do that if we're busy thinking about all the stuff we have to do. I think there's some on stuff that we do with practicalities and then there's some on time where we just look at our kid and say you're amazing, you're so much better of a parent than I ever could have been or even could have dreamt that you are. We have to take the time to slow down enough to recognize what they're doing and what they're doing might just be their baby looked at them and we're like I remember you looking at me.

Speaker 2: 50:50

Like that, that's so beautiful, like you have to be able to take that space and do it. And if you're busy, busy, busy, busy, busy, you can't right. They might say, oh, mom was so helpful, she did all these things. But what they may really want is just for you to be in that moment to say you're incredible, you're an incredible mother, and I see what you do for your child, I see the hours of breastfeeding that you're working through and I know you're going to be successful because I trust you. There's that. But if you don't take care of yourself during your on off time, you can't be in that moment. Like you just don't have the mental and emotional energy to recognize that. And your kids need that. I think they need that more than any of the practical stuff, cause you can hire out a lot of practical stuff.

Speaker 2: 51:31

You can have meals delivered. You can have um someone come and clean the house, right. We can have someone come and take the dogs for a walk and get groceries. Those are all that stuff can be done. But no one else is the voice of the emotional support that the grandparents. That's beautiful and it means the most. It means way more than even for me as a professional. I say those things to moms and they just tear up and it matters to them. But when their own parents says it, they're just like they. They recognize, they see me, they love me, they trust me. That's as good as you can expect as a parent right. To have someone else really believe in you, that's an incredible feeling. And to have your own parents, who've seen you through some of your awkward stages right, who have known you aren't always successful, to believe that you'll be successful and that you are successful, I think that's one of the deepest needs of our heart.

Speaker 1: 52:24

That's really beautiful. I would love to end with that because it's so beautiful, but I have to ask you for two takeaways. But I really love that and for me, especially, who's always on and moving fast, that's gonna be my huge takeaway. So thank you.

Speaker 2: 52:38

Yeah, you're not the only one. When I speak to grandparents, many of them think about all the things they can do, but recognizing who their kids are is far more important.

Speaker 2: 52:48

And that's actually one of my takeaways. Okay, good, go for it. My first takeaway is to believe in your kids, is to know that you've done all the work that you could do to make them good parents and trust their instincts with their kids and let them borrow your belief during a time that's high pressure, low sleep, not a lot of nurturing, and yet they're giving a lot of nurturing away. Think of them in a deficit that you have to pour into just for that early postpartum phase, not forever, but just early on, because it's really hard and they don't trust themselves and nothing we have built in our culture allows them to trust their instincts. If they can borrow your confidence just for a little while until they feel it themselves, they're going to feel it faster and earlier and have more trust in themselves. So believe and and don't just say you're a great mom or you're a great dad, but say I see the way you care for your kid, I see you getting up at 3am and 4am and 5am, what an investment you are making in nurturing this baby and it's really going to pay off and I I love what you're doing with your kids, or I love this about you be specific. And then number two is make sure that you're getting your own needs met too, as a grandparent, because I think we haven't had a culture where we can go to therapy, where we can have some reflection on how we're feeling and some recognition of our own grief and our own pain, sort of postpartum abandonment.

Speaker 2: 54:16

You know, we didn't have a lot of postpartum care. It hasn't been present in several generations, and so to pour into a next generation feels like, and so to pour into a next generation feels like, well, nobody did this for me and I was okay, except there's some hurt there that nobody did it for you and had you been able to change it, you would have, because you knew you needed help, like postpartum needs help, new babies need help. This is a cultural shift that we're doing it independently. So I think if you can go get your own needs met and have someone say that grief is worthy of being processed, let's process how that feels, so that you can get to a place where you're like okay, now I can, I can handle what they're throwing at me, because, even though I don't necessarily believe in it or I didn't practice it that way, it matters to them and they matter to me, but you can't get to that emotional space until you've all the stuff that's inside, and that isn't something we're super practiced at. So that's my second takeaway.

Speaker 1: 55:16

So I would love you to tell people how they can get in touch with you. Why don't you do that? Sell yourself a little bit at the end.

Speaker 2: 55:23

Fair enough. So I have several hats that I wear, but the primary one right now is grandparentdoulacom, so they can go to the site. They can read all about the class that I have offered. I have a lot more at abcdoulacom because I'm still running my doula agency and we have a lot of classes for parents and grandparents there too, but the main goal is there at grandparentdoulacom and then on Instagram I'm at thegrandparentdoula and we have a lot of fun there because I get lots of feedback from grandparents.

Speaker 1: 55:59

Oh, I bet that's a great one to follow and I will put that both your website and the Instagram in my episode notes and also in my social media when the episode drops. So, kimberly, thank you so much. I'm on my way. I'm going to be a better grandparent. Mostly I have to get rid of everything and talk to other people, but thank you so much. I really appreciate it. Okay, thanks. Well, I hope all of you love that as much as I did.

Speaker 1: 56:26

Most of you who've been listening know I'm a high energy person, so I'm going to have to really tone myself down. It's going to be a big journey for me, but this really helped. So, as you know again, we're not dropping episodes as regularly as we have before, but there's lots of fun things coming up, and I have to thank Connie Gorn Fisher again, our audio production engineer, and write to us biteyourtonguepodcast at gmailcom, share your comments and ideas and certainly if you have people you think would be really great for us to interview. We're still looking for support. I know we're not doing it as often, but we're still paying for our platforms. Buy us a virtual cup of coffee, biteyourtonguepodcastcom. It's just $5. Make a small donation. Thank you all once again for listening and remember, sometimes you just have to bite your tongue. Thank you.