The Messy Truth About Mother-Daughter Relationships

We are doing an episode rewind today on our most downloaded episode - Mothers and Daughters.  This relationship carries a unique intensity that often follows us well into adulthood. When does healthy involvement cross into control? How do we navigate the painful territory when our adult daughters push us away?

Certified life coach and mother/daughter expert Pam Tronson joins us to unravel the complicated dynamics of mother-daughter relationships with refreshing honesty. Drawing from her professional expertise and personal struggles with her own adult daughters, Pam gets straight to the heart of what makes these relationships simultaneously precious and challenging.

"We were expected to be in control," Pam explains, pinpointing why the transition to parenting adults feels so disorienting. "That was part of our job description." The expectation to curate, orchestrate, and manage gradually gives way to a new reality – watching from the sidelines as our children build independent lives. This transition feels like "jumping off a bridge" for many mothers who've built their identities around active parenting.

Most powerfully, Pam encourages mothers to take responsibility without shame: "When you own the problems, you have the power to do something about them." Her advice to ask better questions like "what else could be true?" offers a path away from defensiveness toward genuine connection.

Whether you're navigating a challenging relationship with your adult daughter or working to improve communication as an adult daughter yourself, this episode provides compassionate guidance for the journey. Subscribe and share your experiences with us – when was the last time you had to bite your tongue?

Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
Send all ideas to biteyourtonguepodcast@gmail.com. Remeber to follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Support US!  Visit our website at biteyourtonguepodcast.com and select SUPPORT US.  You can buy a "virtual" cup of coffee.

Chapters

• 0:56 Welcome to Bite Your Tongue
• 1:35 Introducing Co-host Kirsten Heckendorf
• 3:14 Meet Pam Tronson: Mother-Daughter Coach
• 5:44 The Challenge of Mothering Adult Children
• 14:20 Entitlement Issues in Mother-Daughter Relationships
• 21:40 Setting Healthy Boundaries with Adult Children
• 27:41 When Your Daughter Doesn't Need You
• 34:20 Redefining Success and Failure as Parents
• 51:40 Key Takeaways and Closing Thoughts

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

anxiety and the worry and and I've gone through it I just took a massive deep dive into worry and I think one of the things that even I got clarity on as I was writing was that a lot of our worry is connected to control. We, as moms, were expected to be in control right, that was a part of our job description and we had to build a control we need. We were supposed to be in control right, that was a part of our job description and we had to be able to control. We were supposed to be able to curate. We were supposed to be able to orchestrate, know what to do, control the environment as much as we could. Of course, I think of letting out the rope through the years where they got to have more and more autonomy, but there's still a little voice in all of our heads as moms, I think, that says, oh, you could be doing something about that.

Speaker 2: 0:56

Hey everyone, welcome to Bite your Tongue, the podcast. Join me, your host, denise Gorin, as we explore the ins and outs of building healthy relationships with our adult children. Together, we'll speak with experts, share heartfelt stories and get timely advice addressing topics that matter most to you. Get ready to dive deep and learn to build and nurture deep connections with our adult children and, of course, when to bite our tongues. So let's get started. Hello everyone, and welcome to another episode of Bite your Tongue the podcast. The time is now. Drum roll, please. I'm going to introduce my new co-host, but before I do, I want to thank so many of you who've reached out with interest in joining our team. We actually have a few people who are behind the scenes and have volunteered to help. It's so wonderful. Thank you, liz. Thank you Terry, erica and Jen. Jen is actually a young adult who follows us on Instagram and finds the podcast very helpful from the young adult angle. I can't thank each of them enough. From the young adult angle, I can't thank each of them enough and even though I have a permanent co-host who knows, one of them may pop in from time to time. Okay, so who's the new co-host? Welcome, kirsten Heckendorf.

Speaker 2: 2:15

I've known Kirsten for a long time as she lives in Denver. We knew of each other but our paths really didn't cross. Coincidentally, she started working for a music website, val's List, out of Chicago. Val, the founder of Val's List, happens to be a dear childhood friend of mine from Youngstown, ohio. Val actually co-hosted an episode with me, with Susan Engle, season two, episode 22. So I got to know Kirsten a bit better through Val and she reached out and you know I thought it would be great to have someone local. She's the parent of three adult children. She has a great perspective on parenting and is willing to work hard with me and for all of you. So welcome, kirsten, to Bite your Tongue. We're so happy you're taking this journey with us.

Speaker 3: 3:07

Thank you, Denise. I am so excited and honored to be here. I had so much fun co-hosting with you on the Joshua Coleman episode, I thought why not give this a go permanently? So I'm ready to get to work and I may as well start by letting listeners know about our exciting guest. Today. We're welcoming Pam Tronson, a certified life coach with a specialty in mother-daughter relationships. She actually trained with one of your earlier guests, Roshka Hasseldine, so you can listen to that episode with Roshka on our website or on any podcast platform, from Apple to Spotify or anything in between.

Speaker 2: 3:42

I love that episode with Roshka, and I have a daughter who just turned 35. So I love that episode and I know this one's going to be great too. It's a topic everyone seems to want to talk about.

Speaker 3: 3:55

I think it's really important. Not only are we mothers of daughters, but we're also daughters of our own mothers. So I found that kind of an interesting little twist I was thinking about the other day. But I'm fortunate, I have a good relationship with my daughter. But that hasn't happened, naturally, without some struggle from both of us from time to time and, I'm sure, at the right times teenage years and all that. But what strikes me about the struggles, not just with mothers and daughters, but families in general, is that we're living in a time when people are craving connections and yet at the same time it's so difficult, and I don't know why it has to be so difficult.

Speaker 2: 4:31

No, you're absolutely right. I was talking to someone this morning and I think we all have much closer relationships with our kids than probably previous generations. But I want to say two things to what you just said. One, you're lucky to have your mother, and that makes sense that you're going to see this from both angles. I've lost my mother, but I still, when I listen to these things, I think, oh, I could have been a better adult daughter. The other thing I want to say is you mentioned the teenage years and such. For me, the teenage years were nothing. It's been the young adult years that's been much harder. So I think for everyone, yeah, it's just a different ball game.

Speaker 2: 5:05

So on to Pam. Now, before I do the formal introduction, I want to tell you every Monday she sends out a message and you can sign up for a message through her website, which is PamTronsonCoachingcom, and I'll put a link to that in our episode notes. But every week I find something I love, and I said to Pam when she was joining us today I just read your things and I, like you, there's just something about her. But this week she talked about conflict and she asked readers to examine how they handle conflict and if it doesn't work, how they can reframe.

Speaker 2: 5:39

It really hit home for me, because hard for me to admit, but I am the person that argues. So when conflict hits me, I many times want to prove I'm the right one. And you know what? I do this with my adult daughter sometimes and I realized how much I have to stop because there's no right or wrong in this. So it made me really kind of rethink anything. But anyway, I just wanted to share that Before I get in again. She is going to tell us about herself and how she got into this, but I want her to read something that I think I read on her website. So I wonder, pam, would you read that piece of copy that I sent to you earlier?

Speaker 1: 6:18

Absolutely. There are words on my website. There are also words on my heart, I think I love and adore both of my daughters, yet I was frustrated and confused by the relationship that was unfolding with each of them. It looked nothing like what I had imagined it would be, and it often consumed me. How could there be such angst between me and these beautiful souls? I believe I had given my all to, and when I looked around, all I could see were the moms who seemed to be able to successfully work through that which I could not. What had I done wrong? What had I missed?

Speaker 2: 6:57

I just get chills. I don't know why, but I think there are so many parents, and moms in particular, that feel that way. When you have a young adult and Kirsten and I were talking about this a little bit earlier we all try our very best, absolutely, and when things go awry it's hard. But anyway, welcome Pam, we're happy to have you. Please share with our listeners a little bit more about you, your story, because I'd like that to come from you rather than from us Sure.

Speaker 1: 7:24

Well, first and foremost, can I just say, denise, how thrilled I was when you reached out to me. I literally did the happy dance, thinking that there was someone out there who was bringing the spotlight to the relationship us moms have with our kids. Because there's a general assumption, I think, in the world that, oh yeah, once you're an empty nester, everything is lovely, the kids leave, and then their lives are great and our lives are great and nobody talks about it. And it's challenging I mean especially now all the different things that are going on in our world and for our kids' world things that are going on in our world and for our kids' world and the fact that you're doing this. I'm so happy that you've taken the time and made the effort.

Speaker 2: 8:15

And I'm honored to be here today to be able to chat with you. Well, we're happy to have you, and this is Kirsten's first episode as my new co-host, so she is putting her mark on this too, and we both know that this is all we talk about with our friends, so why not make a public forum for it? Anyway, go ahead.

Speaker 1: 8:30

Well for me, I decided back in the 80s that I wanted to be a life coach which sounds kind of odd because I don't know that there was such a thing back then but I had worked with Tony Robbins, both as as a participant and then I had worked as a volunteer. It was when he was still getting started and he didn't have the big staff that he had, and I just decided I'd watched so many people have these epic transformations in their lives. I was maybe one of them and I knew that's what I wanted to do, and clearly it took me a little while to get here. But in 2018, I had my second certification in life coaching and it was when I started to take it on as my full-time occupation. And it was funny because everybody talks about niching down, like what are you going to specialize in? For a lot of people, it's the thing that they've had the most challenges with, and for me, I was like, well, I didn't know what I'm going to do because my life's been really great and, yes, I'm on my second marriage. You know I always say you only get married twice, but I was like my life seemed to be going pretty well. It wasn't like I thought I was suffering in any way and I think the universe heard me and went oh, let's give her something to suffer about. And that was when things started to kind of get a little rocky. I have two adult daughters. They're both in their 20s and things got really challenging and it was really hard and it was like okay, so here's what I'm going to apply all of my life coaching to. And I worked through so much and I was making so much progress and at the time I was kind of a general life coach for women in their forties, fifties, sixties kind of thing.

Speaker 1: 10:18

I was off on a retail therapy afternoon and walked into the store and saw this coaster that said you are the mom everyone wishes they had. And I flat out lost it right there in the store and it was just like dagger in my heart. But I'd been doing so much work. I was like, damn it, I am buying this thing for myself in honor to the work that I've been doing. And I left and I was sitting in my driveway with the mascara stains on the front of been doing. And I left and I was sitting in my driveway with the mascara stains on the front of my face and it was like I got this sensor. I heard this voice, or whatever it was, that said you're not done yet, and I was.

Speaker 1: 10:56

When you talk about conflict styles, I was one of those people who would go, oh, I really messed that up. Okay, I'm going to pretend that never happened. I'm going to go over here. I wasn't good at addressing things and it was like my rally cry that no, I still had years to become the mom that I'd always wished I would be or I always hoped to be, and I was in the habit of making a video every week and I made a video about my experience. I don't really know what having a video go viral means, but it was on Instagram and, before I knew it, I had a following and what was funny well, maybe not funny, no-transcript to see that the shame is what drags us into a corner and makes us incompetent and makes us the thing that gets in the way of the repair that's needed.

Speaker 2: 12:23

I just want to say something as you say this and I apologize because I should never interrupt a guest, but I didn't want to forget what you said about you still had time to make a change, and what I'm realizing as a parent of adult children is and I've said this on a couple other episodes this is actually the longest relationship we'll ever have with them. All that we did being room parents or running them to soccer, or making sure they were in the right school did their homework I mean it mattered, but not like this second stage does now, because we have a chance for a real relationship. We were a parent back then. Now, as they say, we're almost like a consultant and we have to be there, but not over. Be there, does that?

Speaker 3: 13:09

make sense and it's a huge learning curve.

Speaker 1: 13:13

I don't know.

Speaker 2: 13:13

Did you feel that way, Kirsten? It's a learning curve. They don't listen to everything you say anymore.

Speaker 3: 13:18

They don't listen to most of what you say initially and then almost guaranteed they come back later and they say I know you told me this, but and you were right, and yes, if I had really just learned the lesson to have listened to you from the beginning, anyway, with everything, I'd be good.

Speaker 2: 13:39

Sometimes, Anyway, go ahead.

Speaker 1: 13:40

Pam, yeah Well. And then I give the advice and I'm like, who was that? Am I doing that? Like, oh, that's interesting ahead. Pam, yeah Well. And then I give the advice and I'm like, who was that? Am I doing that? Like, oh, that's interesting perspective, pam, how about you apply that to your life? But yes, no, completely, I know what you're saying, but yeah, so that's how I got to be where I'm at. And I have to say it's funny. I had a couple of people different coaches that I work with, where I said I'm thinking of niching down and I want to work. I just want to work with moms who have challenging relationships with their adult daughters, and the response I got a number of times was like, well, you know, I don't really know if there's a market for that, and I was thinking one of them was a man.

Speaker 3: 14:19

So you know thank you?

Speaker 1: 14:23

Yeah, thank you. I was going to say that. Yeah, that's what I was going to say.

Speaker 2: 14:25

Wait a minute, we've got male listeners. Kirsten Stop, they know a lot. Anyway, go ahead.

Speaker 1: 14:30

No, we're not busting on anyone.

Speaker 2: 14:31

I'm teasing. I'm teasing and I know you're teasing.

Speaker 1: 14:34

It's something that we, I don't know. Like I say, we just all dialed. And then in the intro that you asked me to read, that's one of our biggest curses is, we look at all of the other people who think they've got it dialed. We think that they somehow are doing something right and we're somehow doing something wrong, and it's just another aspect of it that inevitably will sink the boat.

Speaker 2: 15:02

Do you think social media plays into that?

Speaker 1: 15:04

We're seeing everyone else's play out in front of us. Oh yeah, I mean absolutely. But when we can recognize how that's affecting us and our lives. Think of the impact it's having on our kids.

Speaker 2: 15:18

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 15:19

I mean, I'm kind of happy to be in my 60s. I wouldn't want to be going through that right now in my life. I just think that social media is awesome, the internet is awesome, and it's also just another one of those things that you just got to learn how to get it on a short leash.

Speaker 2: 15:39

All right, so let's get on to some of this. What are some of the most common challenges or conflicts that you think arise between mothers and daughters?

Speaker 1: 15:47

Well, I think you hit the nail on the head, denise. There is an aspect I mean, like our generation, we have been so involved in our kids' lives. I was raised in a family where you had to come home for dinner when the streetlights came on and my parents had no idea where I was half the time Schools, grades they knew nothing of that.

Speaker 2: 16:10

And not that I had neglectful no no, no, all of us grew up that way. All of us grew up that way.

Speaker 1: 16:14

Yeah, amazing parents, but they weren't involved in our lives. But I think there's a generational turnover. I feel sorry for my mom. I was a wild child. I was everybody's nightmare, I bet. But I experienced that and came out of it with the idea of, oh, it's going to be different when I'm a mom. I'm not going to, that's going to be. Those things will change when I'm a mom and that's been happening for generation after generation after generation after generation.

Speaker 1: 16:47

We as a whole parent in response to the way we were parented and you see the ebbs and flows of the different kinds of attitudes towards it. But that's one of the things like it's just, it's just different. We're so much more involved and then all of a sudden we get to this part where we're supposed to like go sit in the stands. It can feel like a jumping off the bridge moment, because there's a moment when we're they call us all the time in college, or we're so involved in their life and they're, you know, their boy. They get told about their boyfriends and their what are we thinking about for career and all this kind of stuff. And I always use the analogy. We've been the coach on the field with them year after year after year after year, and then all of a sudden, the next season starts and you're asked to go, sit in the stands and watch and applaud when things go well and go, oh, when they drop a pass. But no one's asking you like. It's not your job to be the coach anymore.

Speaker 1: 17:48

And crossing that bridge is is very challenging, and a lot of women get so wrapped up in the identity of, of, of being that amazing mom, that it's hard to put the fork down and step away from the table. But it's necessary for the evolution of this beautiful being that you gave birth to. They now need to go on and create their own life and create their own people and find their people. It's how it's supposed to happen. But we're like the little puppy. No, no, no, no. See me, feel me, touch me, pet me. It's like no, no, no, no, no, see me, feel me, touch me, pet me. It's like no, no, no, no, no. You can't do this without me, can you? And again, forgive me, I always make the analogy. I always knew I was going to have daughters and I was like when I have daughters, they are going to be strong, confident, independent, scrappy, capable women that can speak up for themselves and do all those things. And then it happened.

Speaker 2: 18:48

I was like I just that that took me a minute. That took me a minute. So what you're saying, yeah, then they became capable and everything, and you were further back in the stands. Oh, yeah, then I became obsolete.

Speaker 1: 19:00

I kept thinking if I would have just put some fine print into the contract that said and be you always. Be really nice to your mom. I know that they're not nice, but it's exactly what we wanted. And then it's happening and we're like you know.

Speaker 3: 19:12

Well, the other thing I think that's funny too, and I know you will both relate to this is when they call us and they go on and on and on because they want to share something, and it may be they got into a fight with a girlfriend or whatever. They get it all out, they leave the room or they drop the phone and you are still thinking about this and then a week goes by, you haven't heard from your kid, and the next time you talk to them you're kind of like, okay, so what happened? What are you talking about? Or, oh, and that was nothing.

Speaker 2: 19:45

No, that's absolutely true. We keep it and keep it and keep it. But so what are the strategies? So a parent and a mother comes to you, or a mother, maybe sometimes the adult child you said also will come to you, or do they sometimes come together?

Speaker 1: 19:58

Yeah, I've had a lot of times people will come together. I have always. I'm going to say, most of my clients are the moms and I love it that way, to be honest, because I am a firm believer. It only takes one person. It's physics right. If one person can change, it will dramatically improve the dynamics of the relationship. And I figure I've been on this planet for 35 years, 38 years longer than they have. Why not? Why shouldn't it be me?

Speaker 2: 20:30

Let's get to your office, okay, and what are the kinds of strategies? I think everything you said is exactly right. We all were very over-involved and, as you said that you say you work with the moms I fully believe we have a lot of work to do because we were used to being on the field coaching. I always use the analogy of the theater you were on the stage, then you were in the orchestra, then you were in the mezzanine. All of a sudden, you're out in the lobby, so you don't even know what's going on, which is exactly like you said, what it's supposed to be, and I can intellectually talk about that a hundred times and say that's where I'm supposed to be, blah, blah, blah. But when you don't get that call, or no one's going to be home for Christmas or all of that, which is okay, it has to be okay, they have their lives how do you counsel us?

Speaker 1: 21:18

Of course it's different depending on the person sitting in front of me, one of the things that I think I start with every single sessions, of all the sessions that I do in order to have and I know I'm not going to be the first person on your show that's ever said this, but in order to have a better relationship with anything in your life, you have to have a better relationship with your own self, and we often start there.

Speaker 1: 21:42

I get a lot of moms that come to me that either feel just beleaguered and beaten down.

Speaker 1: 21:48

Either they're there or they're just so damn angry.

Speaker 1: 21:52

It starts with being able to be able to find your center, get back to your center, confidence building, and I think one of the greatest things to build our confidence is to be able to understand how our mind's working and how we're processing what's happening to us.

Speaker 1: 22:09

So we spent a lot of time in the beginning working on having a better understanding of what it is that we're putting out there and how it could potentially be perceived, and part of it or maybe the next step is to be able to walk a mile in their shoes, gain some compassion and insight into what your kids are going through, to create perspective. As to, one of my favorite questions is what else could be true, just to be able to understand what it is that they're dealing with, what they're going through, and not making it just about us. And a third component is understanding what it would look like like what we want to see happen. What's the change? It is that we're most after what would have the most impact, and then you start making steps towards how we get to achieve that, and then you start making steps towards how we get to achieve that.

Speaker 1: 23:05

If there are any particular patterns or dynamics that you see frequently in your practice that are more common than others, Parents want to be over-involved and feel as though and I'm going to throw this word right back out from where it came feel as though they're entitled to be that person in their kids' lives, and so it's just helping them to redefine and reshape their attitude towards the relationship. I see a lot of people that are so wrapped up in worry. We've come to accept worry in our lives as something that's normal. Well, of course we're going to worry. Of course it's an accepted part of motherhood and I don't think it should be.

Speaker 1: 23:50

There's a lot of moms where we spend some time breaking that whole concept down and communication. One of the primary things is learning how to not take everything personally, because we get wrapped up into our own world and our own story that we keep telling ourselves, the story that we, you know, we tell all our friends about this thing that's going on, and we just tell the same story over and over and over again, and all of our friends, of course, are going oh you poor thing, you don't deserve that. You will get the support and the comfort that we need from them, but that's not my job as your coach. My job is to yank the rug out from underneath you a little bit and let's see it for what it is. Let's get clear about what we're working with.

Speaker 2: 24:38

Okay, I want to go back to worry, but I want to talk about that big E word. You used entitlement. Okay, it's very interesting because we just interviewed someone recently who said he feels that this generation is the most caring, the most socially responsible, but also the most entitled. And I just dawned on me. You have two entitled people, so you have the entitled daughter that expects this from the mother and the entitled mother that expects this from the daughter. And that's a scene.

Speaker 1: 25:15

Yeah, oh, it is, and I see that over and over again.

Speaker 2: 25:20

What do you say to someone who? How do you work with them to get this entitlement from them? Parred?

Speaker 1: 25:26

down. Well, again, it's discovery, it's curiosity why does it live there, why is it a part of the relationship? And, digging a little bit underneath, there's so much historical stuff going on that we're sometimes not completely aware of. We live in a very patriarchal society where and I say that I'm not a, I don't hate men, I'm not a, I'm not someone that's going to be out there, I'm not a bra burning feminist. But we've got to be aware of that influence on our relationships and how that's playing out. But I think, even just in the awareness of it, denise is so huge.

Speaker 1: 26:12

I think I have a lot of people that feel as though they're entitled to have that relationship with their daughter or entitled to have that relationship with their grandchildren. I know we're not going to go into that, but it's an interesting bit of quicksand to step into and I think, before you can start throwing that entitled, it can mean honestly. It means a lot of people come to me and say, oh yeah, I think my kids are entitled and we think they're entitled because they were sent to a good school. We helped them choose a school that we thought was most appropriate for them and then they've gone to a college. There was a time in our world where college wasn't necessarily a given, it was an option, and not everybody went to college. I mean, I did college until I was 29. But it's like it's this entitled. You know, we look at it in terms of that it's just something we're going to give to them. We look at it in terms of that it's just something we're going to give to them. Well, at the end of the day, we're just trying to help them to have everything we think they need in order to have the best lives they can.

Speaker 1: 27:15

What's funny too, I have a lot of people that will come to me and they'll say if I ever said something like that to my mom? In that vein and it goes hand in hand with the idea of when we try to kind of curate their lives so they don't have to deal with the hardships that we had I think we sometimes have this expectation that they can be able to teletransport themselves into our childhood and our lives and go oh yeah, mom sure had it different than I do. Like, isn't mom amazing because I don't have to deal with these things that she dealt with? Except that they don't have that power. What they have, it's relative. They're normal. Normal is a very relative thing, so of course I'm going to go to college, of course I'm going to do all those things. That's what everybody does, and we're happy to help them because we can, you're exactly right.

Speaker 2: 28:12

I want to ask another question Do you see a difference in families with two girls or three girls and a boy and a girl? What's the dynamic there in terms of the son versus the daughter and that sort of thing?

Speaker 1: 28:25

Well, again, depends on the family. I think it's interesting. I've looked for research on it. There is no research on it because most research is done by men and the fathers of psychology are never going to dive into this one. But there is a very unique bond between mother and daughter and it's historical. We can look at it from an evolutionary standpoint, but it's there, it exists, and it's a different kind of bond. Information is transmitted through a glance, as opposed to any other kind of demonstrative way. It's different, and I don't have voice, so I don't have a literal experience of that, but I do think it's incredibly.

Speaker 1: 29:11

It's a different relationship with the boys and let's face it. Okay, so go back to the patriarchal society. Go back, however many generations I mean. Our world was created where the man sits at the top of the pyramid as the person of wisdom who provides for the family and who doesn't really have any responsibilities to the family per se other than to provide for them, and then the woman is underneath, the wife's underneath, doing everything for everyone all the time, running herself crazy, and she in some ways has authority, of course until dad comes home or until that son rises up beside her. It's a different way that the and again I'm talking five or six generations ago the different way that son is looked at. He's going to be the one that takes over the family business or he's going to be whatever that is. He has a different role and they're treated differently.

Speaker 1: 30:07

I have a lot of clients who have one of each and they're like oh no, my son adores me, he's a piece of cake, he's whatever. It's a different relationship and, like I say, I have no literal experience of it, but I have witnessed it and the dynamics of people come to me. I have one client who has five daughters and she told me that in the first place and I was like I'd rather drive a red hot poker in my eye. I can't imagine what that would be like and she's kick-ass, she's an amazing woman. But I can't imagine what it would be like to have five daughters, six women, in the same household, unless, of course, you had six guest houses or something.

Speaker 3: 30:52

One of the things that I have found the most difficult is of my three kids. I have two boys and a girl. My daughter is always the one to point out whatever it is about me, about my character, as she sees it about.

Speaker 3: 31:09

It doesn't matter what it is, and I guess that I've always looked at it as her figuring out who she is. And in order to figure out who she is, she's needed to do a kind of this push pull thing, because she'll do it and she'll be pretty tough on me, and then five minutes later she needs a hug. And so is that a common theme? Is it something that they need to do in their own development? That's how I viewed it.

Speaker 1: 31:40

Well, I think it's a really healthy thing for them to do, because the other option is to not have any interaction with you, growing up in this kind of banter back and forth, and then they're the ones that just can't wait to get out of the house and you never hear from them again.

Speaker 1: 31:55

And I think, like, in a situation like that, I think what's really helpful and what I try to do with a lot of my with my clients, is reframe the idea of blame when they start pointing out all those things that they think are wrong with you, to be able to reframe that in a way where I like to see it as data, because they are again, I think you're dead on. They are testing out theories, the radar's up and they're trying to figure out themselves, often through you, because there's so many of our own qualities that, sadly, we see reflected in our kids. Can they just get the good parts, please? But so it is a discovery and you're safe, right? Remember when our kids were toddlers and they're like oh yeah, they save all their worst behavior for you because they can't.

Speaker 1: 32:47

Well, guess what? That doesn't necessarily go away. It's just more personal when you're talking to a 17-year-old or a 15-year-old, a 30-year-old, let's forget those teen years.

Speaker 2: 33:01

Yeah, it really develops a lot more. When you're 17, you can still say, well, they're a teenager. But when they're 27, 28, 29, 30, you sort of expect this respect. And, like Lawrence Steinberg said, he's the one who wrote this recent big book on your adult children. Gone are the days of honor thy father and mother.

Speaker 1: 33:21

Yeah, Well, honestly, we can see all the statistics about how we're generally moving away from organized religion again, for better, for worse, but that's a tenet that comes to us so clearly from that and the family and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, we're moving into a world where we do think more about the individual than we do as a group.

Speaker 2: 33:42

What do you tell a client? I want to go back to what you said about worry number one as a group. What do you tell a client? I want to go back to what you said about worry number one and also what Kirsten said about. But you have to have a lot of self-esteem to listen and not react, okay. So I want to know about that. And I want to also know what you tell a parent who does worry all the time the kid. They may have the distance, the kid's doing great, they're on their own, but they worry they could get fired from this job. Are they working hard enough? Should they really be dating this person?

Speaker 2: 34:12

I don't like the neighborhood they're living in you could think of all the different things you worry about. Did they send in a thank you note to Aunt Sally when she sent them that money? How does a parent deal with all that anxiety and worry?

Speaker 1: 34:24

Well, the anxiety and the worry and I actually have to say I just finished creating this little 50-page mini book that I'm going to be I'm not sure when the podcast will air, but that'll be available and I've gone through it. I just took a massive, deep dive into worry and I think one of the things that even I got clarity on as I was writing was that a lot of our worry is connected to control. We, as moms, were expected to be in control, right. That was a part of our job description and we had to be able to control. We were supposed to be able to curate, we were supposed to be able to orchestrate, know what to do, control the environment as much as we could, and, of course, I think of letting out the rope through the years where they got to have more and more autonomy.

Speaker 1: 35:17

But there's still a little voice in all of our heads as moms, I think, that says, oh, you could be doing something about that.

Speaker 1: 35:24

Maybe you should try to fix that, or we want to still stay so on their everything and the thing with control.

Speaker 1: 35:35

It's like we don't have control, we cannot control the other humans, and for some of my clients I always say put it on a sticky note and put it on your fridge, put it on your mirror, put it everywhere, tattoo it across your forehead, get it on the inside of your arm. We cannot control the other humans. We can't. We have no control over them. We have no control over what happens to them. But our brains go down the rabbit hole because and this is where worry comes in we would rather be able to hold on to the idea that they're going to be homeless, living under a bridge, like if that's our worst fear. We would rather go there and know the outcome as opposed to just going well, I don't really have any control, I don't really know what's going to go on. Your brain does not like that. Your brain wants something that it can hold onto, and releasing control means releasing control, being at peace with the next thing that comes.

Speaker 1: 36:36

Boy I really believe that, and worry is that thing. We want to know what's going to happen, even if it's horrible, which is a crazy thing that our brain does.

Speaker 2: 36:47

But if we can't control them, we can control our worry, meaning I'm going to hang on to this worry because I can't change the situation. And I also just wonder I've never thought about this. The stronger you are, the more successful you are as a woman. You've been in control of a business. You've been in control. You're not used to not being in control. I have a personal experience. My daughter was 35. She was getting married. She really wanted to do it all and I've done events my whole life, always in control of the whole thing. It was the hardest thing I ever did was to sit back and bite my tongue and watch it all happen. And I would say to my husband I'm making all these lists. And he said, well, she's doing it, why are you doing it? Well, I'm making all these lists. And he said, well, she's doing it, why are you doing it? Well, I'm not sharing them with her, but I got to go through in order for me to be quiet.

Speaker 1: 37:38

Well, and I have to say, denise, the fact that you did that, it's something that I recommend to clients all the time. We've got to get in the habit of writing it down, whether it be a list, or I encourage this thing called thought downloads, just to literally get the stuff that's swirling in our brains out of our brains and onto a piece of paper. Horrible, crappy thoughts can't hide if they're on a piece of paper. They can hide in the backs of our brains. But if you write down, if you think about all the things you're worried about and you write them down and you look at, if you're honest in what it is you're writing, and then you look at the words, you're like, well, that's stupid. Why would I think that? No, that's not going to happen, I don't need to worry about it. Like I say, bad thoughts can't hide when you've got them down on paper. So it is. I'm glad that you went and wrote down lists, major lists of all the things that you wanted to focus on. It's healthy.

Speaker 2: 38:31

I did tell her I worried, and worried and worried. This was the most perfect wedding ever. You knew exactly what you were doing, exactly what to do, and I'm glad I bit my tongue. It's hard for me to stand back.

Speaker 1: 38:42

Oh yeah, I must say, like in that moment when you did it and it hardest thing you've ever done, that's the other thing we don't do really a really good job as moms, especially as being able to celebrate it. I, this is what I wanted to do, this was what I chose to do, and then give yourself a gold star, a little bit of the happy dance. It's like, oh yeah, I got this, I did it Like we have to be able to celebrate the wins. Our brains are wired. We are innately driven to find everything that's gone wrong, so we have to counterbalance it by actively finding the things that go right and hang on to them.

Speaker 3: 39:22

Well, that brings my next point up, which is to go back to something you said earlier about self-care and how, the importance of that. What self-care practices and strategies do you recommend to your clients?

Speaker 1: 39:35

One of my most favorite ones. It's called boundaries, because, okay, I'm going to just weave a couple of things in here. If I want to get my listeners, my followers, riled up, I just drop in a post about respect and there'll be like 200 responses. Everybody's got an opinion about respect and these kids don't have respect anymore, and yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda, yadda. Well, it's a hot button for so many people and there's so many things like that, like respect. We have to be able to have it for ourself first, and that's how I think we encourage respect into our lives. We have to learn how to love ourselves first before we can expect another human to love us fully, deeply. And self-respect and boundaries. I think that's why you have boundaries. Boundaries for me, that's why we created boundaries, so it's a form of self-respect.

Speaker 2: 40:35

Give me an example of a boundary you might have with your daughter.

Speaker 1: 40:39

I'm just thinking of some of the clients that I've worked with, daughters who tend to get really overly emotional on a telephone conversation where you can say, and again, boundaries are not what you need them to do. Boundaries are not a way to control the other humans. Boundaries are a way you set a boundary. If you do this, then I'm going to do this, but it's not like I'm going to scream. It's like if we get on a phone call and it gets too heated, I'm going to just set this out ahead of time. I reserve the right to raise my hand and we can end the conversation. I'm going to take care of myself. This is nonproductive. So in conversation, if things get too heated, I'm reserving the right. I will step away from the conversation. I will hang up, I will go for a walk. I will do that to take care of myself.

Speaker 2: 41:34

And then will you connect later. How do you reconnect after that?

Speaker 1: 41:38

No, there's always yeah, you always want to be able to set it up where a chance.

Speaker 2: 41:43

You just need a breather. You just needed a breather.

Speaker 1: 41:49

Well, it's need a breather, but it's also it's a message like no, you don't get to talk to me like that. I want to talk about this, I want to get deep, it can get ugly, but you don't get to curse at me, you don't get to call me names, you don't get to be you know. And the thing is like even just, I'm just thinking of one client in particular, like she is aware, or she's become aware, that her daughter goes to that spot when she feels out of control, when she feels things spiraling. So, again, we're not going to take that personally. That's about my daughter, that's not about me, that's about my daughter. But, fyi, when the switch gets flipped and you go to that space, when the switch gets flipped and you go to that space, we're going to take a pause. We want to have productive, strong, meaningful, deep conversations. That doesn't. That's never going to be a part of it. And the other thing my coach, I love her so deeply, but her favorite words are I love you and no.

Speaker 1: 42:46

So when you have a situation where your daughter just expects you to be available, or whatever that is, I have a couple of clients whose daughter they are the second nanny and they just don't feel as though they'll be out doing something nice for themselves and daughter will call up and say are you close by? Can you just come by and do you know? And in some ways it's like there's part. There's days where you're like, woo, yeah, I'll be there in two minutes, but you're also allowed on the days where, no, you have plans. You don't have to change your day and cancel all your plans just so you can go be with them. It's for fear that if you don't, you might get not asked back again.

Speaker 2: 43:33

Why do parents feel that way so much nowadays? I think what you just said is critical. It's like, yes, I'll be there. You want me to send you that, I'll send it right away. It's. It's almost like it's we flipped roles.

Speaker 1: 43:42

Yeah, yeah, we do. And again, I made the joke of being the puppy. We just you puppy. Whatever attention you can give me is I'll take it. I'll take it, but that's. I always have the expression you got to lay down to be a doormat. If you're in a place where resentment is building, where you feel that, to me that's the telltale sign. You need to set a boundary is when resentment is storming into your life. That's the time where you've got to go. I got to stand up for me and it's courage and it's bravery, because you know what, as women, what do you mean?

Speaker 1: 44:18

I mean you've got your own needs. What do you mean? You have your own plans. It's like, come on, you're supposed to be the mom, everything for everybody, all the time. You're supposed to be selfless. For generations we've been praised as being those selfless mothers that put everyone else's needs above their own. I remember being with my husband and his mom, who is one of the most amazing women on the planet. God bless St Janie. She had six children, five boys, one girl. It's 96 years old, so amazing. But we were talking one time and there was her son saying just this my mom, she is just the most selfless individual. She's never put. She's always puts everybody's needs first and going on on idolizing this version that I think in his brain he believes that that's what we are all aspiring to. And she was so cute. She kind of looked at me and raised one eyebrow and gave me a little wink and I was like oh, you got this mom Cause.

Speaker 2: 45:21

She was like Well, you know, and people don't think of that because really that is such a compliment, she's so selfish. So we talked about this with Roshka a little bit, and I know you know, and we thought we actually yeah, we titled the episode the burnt hamburger because you're at the barbecue the hamburgers, there's one that's burnt.

Speaker 1: 45:44

Who takes it? Yeah, yeah, why? I mean, look at the herd of lions. The female lions all go out and they bring back food for the pack and then they retreat back and they sit back until everybody else has eaten. And then it's their turn. I mean it's just somehow. I mean it is the way. It's that generational thing that we've been raised.

Speaker 2: 46:08

Well, and also they came from us. Yeah, many breastfed them. You know it's very nurturing, so it's a real hard balance. One of your newsletters you talked about adult daughters not really needing us, or wanting us. In fact, you said they might not like us, so that hurts. How do parents deal with that, with their daughter and with themselves?

Speaker 1: 46:31

Well, I think that the whole idea of I mean, you got to look at the idea of being needed, right, our job we call it raising kids we think of this part of our life is that where we're raising kids, we're not raising kids or raising adults. The goal was to create and be able to launch these humans into the world. That didn't need us. Like that's, that was a part, like that's a part of what we're supposed to do. We're supposed to be launching adults that can be independent, that can be all those things. And it is hard, that's something that we have to get over. No, they don't need us. And instead of going over, no, they don't need us. And instead of going, oh, they don't need us to be able to go whoo, and they don't need us.

Speaker 1: 47:18

Like it all depends on how you say those words, you know like that should be a big pat on the back. They don't need us anymore. Like it's awesome. My husband's really good at that. I don't know I'm getting better, but he's very good at applauding that part of the process and it's a great thing and the whole love. Or they don't like me anymore. We all know relationships are messy and believing that they're not supposed to be messy is a very I do not recommend it. We think we have this idea is how it's supposed to turn out and what it should look like it should look like a Hallmark movie, shouldn't it?

Speaker 1: 47:54

Oh yeah, the way it's been filmed and all that kind of stuff. And that's one of the things I always say is like be very careful when the word should pops up into your thoughts, because should is like could covered in shame, you know. So we have Could is should covered in shame, that's great.

Speaker 1: 48:14

We look at this life that we've created. It is supposed to be messy by design. And how many times have you thought, oh my gosh, you know what I love you but I don't really like you right now. It's okay to say that about your kids. Your kid's pretty good about saying it about you. Those are very easy words to roll off their mouth. It's okay in the relationship where there'll be times where you're looking at your kid going you know what. That's not my favorite version of you, but but especially with I know I said it before, but with a mother and a daughter, like there is a love part and we'll we'll call it love, we'll call it a bond. I don't know if it's an umbilical cord or what it is. We are corded to our moms. There is a cord running between mother and daughter that I call it love. It's at the base and I think it's something that it never goes away.

Speaker 3: 49:16

It is interesting. Why does love have to be this very singular idea? Based on what you just said, love should encompass all of the messy and and the reason why we want to do what it is we're doing. So I think that the word love just needs to be redefined, maybe.

Speaker 1: 49:38

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think that we can apply it in so many ways. When you get that list from your kids of all the things that you've done wrong and all the things that they're holding you accountable for, it's an act of love Because in its essence they're saying here's the things that I'm very challenged by. It's kind of a cry for help. Can we fix this?

Speaker 2: 50:06

It's also they care enough to bring it to you fix this.

Speaker 1: 50:12

It's also they care enough to bring it to you.

Speaker 2: 50:14

Yes, yes, they care enough to give you that list of all the things that you've messed up on, or that they think let's be clear here that they perceive that you've messed up on Yep, yep, absolutely, and that's their belief, which means you got to take it. But yeah, because we've all messed up, we've all messed up.

Speaker 1: 50:28

Of course, that was one of the things that I had to do a lot of work on. For me is I'm a perfectionist.

Speaker 2: 50:34

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 50:34

And the idea of that I made mistakes, that I let me say it, Let me try.

Speaker 3: 50:42

Failed, right, okay, wait.

Speaker 1: 50:45

I said it. Yeah, I mean like that was a hard thing for me to wrap my arms around?

Speaker 2: 50:50

Did you come to terms with you? Don't fail if you keep trying.

Speaker 1: 50:53

You know what? I come from a school where failing is highly encouraged. Oh, okay, Right, it was the question. Well, how many times have you failed today? Well, I don't fail, it's not what I do, but it was like no, we turned the language and the energy around behind that word. It's like how many times you failed today? Because failing is learning.

Speaker 3: 51:15

So, pam, we're getting kind of the end of this and really wanted to say thank you for all of it. It's so great to have you, and we always ask our guests to leave us with two or three takeaways that you want our listeners to remember.

Speaker 1: 51:29

Okay, takeaways that you want our listeners to remember. Okay, one of them. My father always used to say to me you have a choice. You get to be either part of the problem or part of the solution, and I think, as moms, we often find ourselves in a default position of being a part of the problem when it comes to a challenging relationship with our kids. And my thing is to be able to own that Instead of going go problems. Again, we were talking about failure. To be able to own the idea that, yeah, yeah, there's been some things that haven't gone that well, there's been some things I've done wrong. And to own them, because when you own the air quote problems like, you get to take responsibility for them, and some people are are. You know that feels like a really horrible thing to do, but when you own a problem, then you have the power to do something about it. So it's that kind of responsibility, that taking a responsibility that I think is incredibly empowering for us all.

Speaker 1: 52:39

The other thing I would like to leave with is learn how to ask better questions. When we throw a question out into the universe, our brain will answer it. So when we say why does this always happen to me your brain's going to come back with because you're dumb or because you're worthless or because you're a bad person. Your brain is not the right source for answering questions If you're asking bad questions. So better questions to be able to sit back and look at the situation you're in and to hear the thoughts, to hear the story that's playing in your brain and to be able to take the pause and go. Is this serving me? Does thinking this thought make it better? Another one of my favorite questions I shared with you already what else could be true? What's the other aspect here that I'm missing? And then the other thing, too, that just implies the fact that it is a choice. It's like why am I choosing to think this? Why am I choosing this aspect of my story? And I promise you there's a benefit there.

Speaker 1: 53:51

When we talk about falling into victim mode, the one thing that's really nice about victim mode you don't have to do anything, you can just point your finger at other people. I feel like this because my daughter says these things, or because she won't come to have Christmas with us, or because she, if you're in victim mode, you don't have to do anything. You just can sit in that well, and point fingers at everybody else. So be curious, bring curiosity to the table and be curious about the different things that you can do. And the other thing I was going to say and I think this I've already touched on this a little bit is that we often believe that other people are doing it, but they're not.

Speaker 1: 54:37

Other moms that look like they've got it all dialed, they're not doing it right, they're doing it differently, and we're all wildly different humans having our own experience, or kids are wildly different humans having their own experiences. We have to be able to be fluid and to get off that whole compare thing I don't remember who it was, but it always talks about compare and despair, and that could be more true than in this particular situation.

Speaker 2: 55:06

Those are so great. Thank you so much and thanks for joining us. Those are so great. Thank you so much and thanks for joining us. I'm so glad I reached out and we'll be in touch. This was terrific.

Speaker 1: 55:15

We really appreciate you joining us well and I've enjoyed it so much and, denise, I am eternally grateful for, for the work you're doing and for allowing me to be a part of it.

Speaker 2: 55:23

Thank you so that episode was a little long, but she had so much to say and so many great things to say. Thank you so much, Pam. So much to think about Listeners. Please remember to check out Pam's website, PamTronsonCoachingcom that's P-A-M-T-R-O-N-S-O-N-Coachingcom, and make sure you sign up to get her. I guess it's a document that highlights the four pitfalls to avoid with your adult daughter. It's a really great piece of writing.

Speaker 3: 55:58

Denise, thank you so much. That was. That was really great today. She's obviously been doing this for a long time and has had sort of a wealth of experience personally, but also just with her clients, and I just can't help but think not just for my personally, but also just with our clients and I just can't help but think, not just for my daughter but also my relationship with my mother that there's a lot of great pearls of wisdom in all of this. I'm excited to put some things in action.

Speaker 2: 56:22

And I think there's a cross between your sons too. All of this is about looking at ourselves, and that's so important. Congratulations on your first episode, first real episode, and welcome to Bite your Tongue. So, anyway, and thanks so much to Connie Warren Fisher, our audio engineer. Please remember to write to us at biteyourtonguepodcast at gmailcom. Let us know if you have any questions or ideas. Remember to follow us on Facebook and Instagram and, once again, any donation will keep us going. Just go to our website at BiteYourTonguePodcastcom and select support us. You'll find lots of ways you can help keep us going. So, thanks so much. Thanks for listening and remember, sometimes you say it, kirsten, sometimes you just have to bite your tongue.

Speaker 3: 57:09

Thank, you.