Bite Your Tongue: The Podcast
Did you ever expect being the parent of an adult child would be so difficult? Introducing "Bite Your Tongue," a look at exploring that next chapter in parenting: building healthy relationships with adult children. From money and finance to relationships and sibling rivalry, we cover it all. Even when to bite your tongue! Join your host Denise Gorant as she brings together experts, parents and even young adults to discuss this next phase of parenting. We will chat, have some fun and learn about ourselves and our kids along the way! RSSVERIFY
Bite Your Tongue: The Podcast
When They are Little, They Sit on your Lap: When They are Big, they Sit on Your Heart
This is one funny episode.
Today we interview Susan Engel, a professor of psychology at Williams College and the author of the New York Times Article: When They're Grown, The Real Pain Begins.
Joining Denise as co-host is a dear friend Val Haller. Val is the mother of four boys, very similar to the ages of Susan's boys when she wrote this article, so she is our perfect co-host.
Susan takes us through her journey when she wrote the article in 2012 and her three boys were 28, 25 and 19. Today, ten years later, she is a grandmother with two of these three boys married and living right next door. Can you imagine?Some things we talk about:
- Reconceptualizing the parent-adult child relationship as a relationship rather than a job that can be perfected
- The value of passing on positive comments between family members while avoiding sharing criticisms
- Finding comfort in knowing your adult children continue to grow, develop resilience, and build support networks beyond you
- The importance of humility and acknowledging your own parenting mistakes
Recognizing when to simply listen rather than trying to fix your adult child's problems
About Val Haller - our co-host:
Val lives in Chicago and is passionate about music. She is the founder/CEO of the music website Valslist.com. She launched it about 10 years ago (when her nest was empty) and it is the first music site specifically created to help busy adults keep up with new music. Check it out.
Huge thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
Send all ideas to biteyourtonguepodcast@gmail.com. Remeber to follow us on Facebook and Instagram. Support US! Visit our website at biteyourtonguepodcast.com and select SUPPORT US. You can buy a "virtual" cup of coffee.
Play along with guest contestants from the education world. Laugh some & learn some...
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There's one little piece that I've learned over the years that helps me, which is one thing you can do is pass on good things. So when one of my kids appreciates or says something wonderful about the other, I'm happy to pass that on, because that can only be good, and they may not be expressing those things to each other. How can it ever hurt to hear that someone in your family loved you or appreciated something you did or felt loved by you and sometimes you can add a little sugar to things by doing that. It can only be good. The one thing that you never should do is pass on bad things. I just don't see how that ever is good. And when your kids are grown, I mean you guys are the ones that were emphasizing the power of stepping back and stepping aside and creating some distance. And in this case, this is one place where I would wholeheartedly agree with you. They have to get good at working out their relationships with one another. So, unless you're saying something that makes them feel better about each other, say nothing.
Speaker 2:Hello everyone, I'm Denise Gorin. Welcome to Bite your Tongue, the podcast. Thanks for joining us as we speak with experts, authors, parents and even young adults to explore the transition from parenting our young children to building healthy relationships with our now adults. Hopefully we'll grow together, learn about ourselves, our young adults and, of course, when to bite our tongues. We are so happy you're with us, so let's get started. Welcome to another episode of Bite your Tongue, the podcast.
Speaker 2:So our dear talented audio engineer, connie Fisher, was strolling through the internet and came across this wonderful New York Times story by Williams College psychologist, susan Engel. The title just drew her in when they're grown, the real pain begins. We decided to reach out and see if, by chance, susan would chat with us. She was actually interviewed about this story by Savannah Guthrie on the Today Show in 2012. Her then three young adult boys were 28, 25, and 19. Now they're 38, 35, and 29. We were wondering how has this changed for Susan, what her journey's been, and we'd like to catch up with her now. The article's great and we'll talk about parts of it as we go through this episode, but I wanted first to share one thing Susan's family friend and neighbor, cora Stevens, said to Susan when she first brought her firstborn son home at three weeks old, cora bounced Jacob on her knee and turned to Susan and said when they're little, they sit on your lap. When they're big, they sit on your heart. So what do you think listeners, do we agree?
Speaker 2:Anyway, ellen couldn't be with me today, so I asked a good friend, val Haller, to co-host with me. Val lives in Chicago and we've been friends since middle school. We both grew up in Ohio. I asked Val to join me because she has four boys and they are just about the same age as Susan's boys when she wrote the story and you should know, while raising children, val was my go-to mother for parenting questions. After raising her boys, val developed her passion for music into a business. She launched ValsListcom and with her remarkable ear she finds great new music for boomers. I have to say her playlists are amazing. I play them all the time, especially her engaging dinner party playlist. Every time I play it my friends ask me where'd you get that playlist? But anyway, we'll talk about that later, but I had to mention it because I think listeners will love her site. So welcome Val. I'm so glad to have you. Why don't you introduce yourself and then introduce Susan, and we'll get started.
Speaker 3:Hi, denise, thank you so much for inviting me to join the conversation today. I mean, heaven knows, we've spent millions of hours talking about parenting together over the years, and thanks for mentioning my music business, but my first identity is being a parent and I just want to say I'm truly honored to be here because I love your podcast so much. I'm rather obsessed with it. You just bring such good quality content to us and this should have been invented a long time ago, denise. But it's a great resource for those of us who have grown up kids, because we think the hard work is done because raising little ones is hard work and just when we sit back and relax and try to just enjoy the fruits of our labor and say they're launched and now I can relax, then the big kid phone calls start coming with bigger crises and bigger heartbreak, and that's when our hearts take over. But that's not the best tool to use in this approach. So it's such an important topic and, susan, I'm so happy to meet you. I know I'm going to learn a ton today. Now let's get started.
Speaker 3:I am so excited to introduce our guest, dr Susan Engel. Susan is a senior lecturer in psychology, founding director of the program in teaching at Williams College. She currently serves as the Williams College Gardeno Scholar, a position that creates and promotes opportunities for students to stretch beyond what they are familiar with. She is also one of the founders of an experimental school in New York State, where she served as educational advisor for 18 years, and she has authored numerous books. But today we are talking to her about her three sons, jake, will and Sam. We're anxious to learn about how things have changed since she wrote her attention-grabbing article in 2012. Welcome, susan. Please feel free to tell us anything else about yourself we've missed and again, thank you for joining us.
Speaker 1:Hi, thank you. Thank you so much for that lovely introduction. What did you miss? Well, one slight correction I'm actually done with my role as the Gaudino Scholar. It's a three-year role and I passed it on to someone else a while ago. Well, what can I tell you that you missed? You couldn't possibly have known this, but I have two very small grandchildren.
Speaker 2:That was going to be one of my first questions. So, in this time, do you have any grandchildren? I was going to ask that at the very top of the hour. Well, there you go. So that's wonderful, and do they live near?
Speaker 1:you at all. Oh boy, oh boy. Do they ever? They live right next door to me, oh my gosh.
Speaker 3:Oh, that's not fair.
Speaker 1:So two of my three sons live right next door and for the moment they actually live in the same house. It used to be my mother-in-law's house when she was alive and their wives lived there with them, and about two and a half years ago they each had a little baby. So two little kids who are cousins live right next door to me.
Speaker 2:Okay, Well this is too good to be true, too good to be true. Let's talk about the difficulties of raising adult children, not the what do I want to say? The fairy tale that you're living right now. Anyway, so you wrote this article in 2013 and I went through all of the comments. I was just reading them, like the comments are like a book in itself and I know this article has gotten so much attention. You know, some of the comments are very painful and some of them just say listen, your job is let go love them, leave them that sort of thing. Why do you think it got so much attention?
Speaker 1:Well, I asked myself that a lot after the piece came out, because I was totally flabbergasted by the volume and intensity of people's responses and I should say that I still get emails about it regularly and I think the answer is because so many parents struggle so much as their kids grow up to figure out what their role is, to figure out how to manage their own feelings, to figure out how to navigate the world of adult children, and I think there has been very little written or published about this. It's a reason why I think your podcast is such a great idea.
Speaker 1:When I was experiencing the difficulties I described in that piece, I felt totally alone and my sense which was oddly blind of me was that every friend I had was having smooth sailing. It's worth getting into graduate school, getting jobs, finding a life mate. Kids were getting into graduate school, getting jobs, finding a life mate, going off and setting up their wonderful independent life. And I thought I was the only one whose kids were struggling and the only one who felt kind of punched in the stomach by the unexpected aspects of the experience, because I had already been a mom. Obviously, by definition, I had already been a mom for 20 something years, so it was just totally new to me, and it never occurred to me that others were going through the same thing. When I began to get the responses, I realized that lots I would say almost everybody goes through it, and they just don't know that everybody else is doing that too. They think they're alone.
Speaker 3:That's a great. Yeah, I have have one question.
Speaker 2:Okay, go ahead Val.
Speaker 3:I think what happens too is our role changes. But we weren't warned about that, you know, we weren't warned that at some point, when they become adults, our whole approach probably needs to shift and we transfer from being fixers, where we either do it for them or show them how to do it, to something really different, like we might just listen more.
Speaker 1:I think it's true, but I'm not sure. I'll just speak for myself here. Oh, and a few others. I'll give you an example. That warning wouldn't have helped me. Yeah, so my mom is 97.
Speaker 1:And this morning I was telling her about the fact that I was going to be doing this podcast and she was reminding me that about 30 years ago so when I was in my 30s my father, who's now dead, and they were divorced, so she was sort of speaking at a distance. She said remember when your dad wanted to write a book about parenting grown upup kids? And I do remember that he said that he wasn't a writer, so I made fun of him. When she said this, I said well, he wasn't a writer, so how would he have done that? My point is that I do remember him bringing that up, and I think he said it to me as an indirect way to say I'm struggling with how to be your dad now that you're a grown-up.
Speaker 1:I don't think I heard that for what it was, and so I'm struggling with how to be your dad now that you're grown up. I don't think I heard that for what it was, and so I'm not sure that you can warn people, because it's very hard to imagine that before you've gone through it. I think it might be something that you have to begin to go through. I mean, maybe I'm wrong about this. Maybe if we heard people talk about it more when we were younger we'd be more ready for it. But I know that people warned me of all kinds of things before I had my first child and I paid no attention.
Speaker 2:Well, don't you think we all think we're going to do it better and we all think we're going to? You know we're going to. That's not true. We're going to handle it better, even when we have our children as babies. We think we're going to do a better job than our parents did and in the end we have all the same struggles that our parents had. It's interesting that you brought up the generational thing, because I wondered whether some of this is generational. Like, did our parents have this sort of thing? We're so much more connected to our kids, even when they're further away, so it's harder to disconnect. Do you think there's any truth in that right now?
Speaker 1:You know, I don't know about that. I'm going to give a complicated answer. First of all, only some people historically were separated from their kids. After all, in most parts of the world people live very close to the other members of their family and for most of history that's been true. So the idea of the grown up far away, separate kid is sort of a modern Western middle class myth, I think. And honestly, even before there was texting there were telephones. I come from a family that was very close and my whole life, I mean, I remember when I was in college and I was living with my boyfriend already who's now my husband I could tell you what every single person in my complicated, spread apart family was reading.
Speaker 2:Oh my.
Speaker 1:God, my parents were divorced. I had three siblings. I always knew what novel everybody else was reading, so that's because we were very in touch and involved with each other. So I don't know. I think that and the reason I bring that up is one thing that you've mentioned that I just don't even accept is the idea that somehow you should step away when your kids are grown up. I don't know why that's a good thing People need to be close to each other and I don't see why it's better to be close to somebody else than someone in your family.
Speaker 3:Susan, I have one quick question about social media. Yeah, my question's a little bit different about that. It's not so much that we're connected or moms talk to their daughters daily, even when they're 25, and that kind of thing. One thing that really worries me is that social media has almost become the younger generation's standard of everything. It's standard of advice, it's standard of what the norm is. It's almost groupthink, and I used to really try to tell my kids don't groupthink, you'll get stuck. So that's the piece that I worry about. They tend to go to that first, and I'm a grandmother too and I'm so close to my kids, my grandkids, but I worry that maybe mom's advice or grandmother's advice, even about parenting, might come second. What do you think Might come second? Is that what you said Might be the second thing that they'll listen to instead of, you know, the first thing?
Speaker 1:Well, yeah, it might be. I mean, look, that too has always been a little more complicated than people think, because the advice that you get from your mom or your grandmother comes loaded with your own irritations and resentments and evaluation of how they brought you up, and societies have very interesting, complicated ways of passing down child-rearing wisdom. So in some cultures it's assumed that you will do things the way that the elders in your community or your neighborhood do them. And in other communities, certainly in modern Western life look at Dr Spock A whole generation, certainly my mom, when she was young, turned to Dr Spock before she turned to her mother, and she felt superior to her mother, like she was reading something that was based in science. That's a really good point. So that too is not totally new.
Speaker 1:I think one thing that you bring up that I do worry about you read about this all the time in the news is that social media presents a perfect version of everything, and so young moms and dads may be seeing examples of family life that seems so perfect that they feel theirs is inadequate. That worries me, because now that I have two kids with little kids and we spend, you know they've grown up, those two little kids. Well, they're not grown up, they're only two and a half, but at the first two years, two and a half years of their life, during a pandemic. So we have spent an enormous amount of time together because we were in a pod together during the worst of the pandemic, and I keep trying to share with them all my mistakes and all the things that I didn't do right or that I'm uncertain of. And you know it's it's a doubly loaded for for them and for me, cause I'm a developmental psychologist and I teach courses on child development and I wrote a book about parenting, and so I'm very eager, especially with my daughters-in-law, to make it clear that most of the time I had no idea what I was doing, but there's so much that I screwed up and that I still screw up.
Speaker 1:And so that's the piece about social media that worries me, not that it replaces what mom or grandma has to say, but that it gives young parents the sense that somebody else has a perfect way of doing it. And one thing I really wanted to talk about, because I feel so strongly about it and you mentioned some one of you said the word job. Parenting is not a job, it's a relationship and God. If you didn't know that when they were sick, you know it when they're 20. There's no right way to do it. There's some ways that make you and your kid happier, and some ways pitfalls, mistakes but it's not a job.
Speaker 2:I agree with you and I want to just say something about when you said step away and you want to continue the relationship. I think that's true, but one of the things that I've learned through this podcast is that the relationships change and unless one person called it a dance and that dance has to evolve, meaning there's a difference in having a relationship with a two-year-old and a 16-year-old and a 25-year-old. And one of the things that came to me very clear in all your comments even about people that didn't have children, but they were relating back to how they felt about their parents parenting them as young adults is the parent's ego getting involved when you're talking to a child and having a conversation with them? Is your ego involved? Like, are you going to be okay? Did you lose your job? Are you going to get another job? You know that's not how you have a relationship.
Speaker 3:That's the Greek mother.
Speaker 2:That's the Greek mother, Right, right, right right, but I think that's what I take as stepping aside. The relationship has to evolve and you can no longer still be the judgy parent or your ego has to be to the side. What do you think about that?
Speaker 1:Again, I think we're all human and your ego is involved. Recently I have to tell a little digression A young colleague of mine she used to be my student but now she's a professor and she was telling me that she felt a little uncomfortable because all her friends are having kids and she and her partner aren't sure they want to have kids and that makes her feel selfish. And I said, oh boy, oh boy, you're not selfish. It's selfish to have kids. After all, no kid asks to be born and once they're here they're sort of stuck and our egos are involved and honestly, in terms of when kids are young, the fact that your ego is involved helps you be a parent. It helps you get your kid to be a talker, get your kid to learn to, to learn to abide by societal norms. It's, it's a part of being a parent, because it's part of what makes you invest so much in your kid. It's just human to be that way, and so I suppose I would put it a little differently. Maybe I'm just older than you guys and so I've been humbled by all my mistakes, but sometimes you you can try to temper that, you can say back off a little pipe down, don't push them about their job or realize that what they want for their life is different than what you thought they would want for their life or what you wanted for them. But I don't think there's any such thing as putting your ego aside. I'll tell you one more story about this.
Speaker 1:Years ago I had a very good friend who had kids the same age as my kids and they were all in their teens at the time and I was telling her a story about us arguing interminably in the evening about what to watch on TV. And my one kid didn't want to watch TV at all and my other kid and I wanted to watch sports and the third kid wanted to watch a police drum or something. And we argued and fought and bickered and my friend said in a somewhat superior way oh, when I'm watching TV with my kids, I never argue, I just let them watch, they get to choose. I let them watch what, choose what we're going to watch. And I said oh, and you watch whatever the show was. That I thought she hated and I hated.
Speaker 1:And I said you let them watch that you can stand to sit there. She said I don't know. After about five minutes I get up and leave the room. She said, I don't know, after about five minutes I get up and leave the room For me. I'd rather stay in there and bicker and come to a solution that we both can be part of, you know, in that case, watch a show that we both want to watch together than to be completely removed. And my point there is that there's a fine line between holding back a little bit which I think is great, I agree with you about that and holding back so much that you've basically detached, and so I guess I just think there's a little more messiness to it, uh, than than people think.
Speaker 3:It's like the relationship is negotiation too. I I'm one of those people. I think that as long as everyone gets to be heard, I think that and you sort of negotiate and decide. Um, you know, people can make their choices, but if everyone's heard, that to me makes a happier relationship. Maybe that's true. So that leads me to one question I've had as a parent of an adult kid is it ever appropriate, or is it absolutely appropriate, to sort of ask for what we want, or do the kids get to call the shots? So your TV story sort of explains that in a way. But is it ever appropriate to say to the kids could I share what I'm thinking, and it's only a suggestion or it's only a thought to add to the conversation say, they're in a critical moment or a hardship. Is it okay to ask that? Or do they get to lead when they're the ones who are having the problems?
Speaker 1:Oh boy, that's the million dollar question, isn't it? I know? Well, I wish I knew the answer. I mean. Well, one thing I can tell you from personal experiences I often suffer from the illusion that I'm being subtler than I really am, absolutely Right. So I think I'm really holding back and I'm just kind of hinting at another way they could approach it, or the job they should take, or the negotiation they should make with the boss, what they might say to their partner. And God knows, now that two of them have kids, I think I'm being so subtle about parenting stuff and it turns out that I'm not so subtle and usually they know exactly what I'm hinting around at.
Speaker 1:And in those situations sometimes it would be better. Sometimes it is better to just say what you think, like take it or leave it. But here's what I think you should do, because after all, that's what you'd say to a friend, at least some of the time. Good point, and of course it's again. It's complicated by the fact that each of your kids is a different person. If you have more than one, they bring to the table a lot.
Speaker 1:To my three sons, I am proud to say, but also exasperated to say don't hesitate to push back or to tell me to pipe down or to tell me that I'm being intrusive. I mean, it's like a family joke and I think their partners are sometimes a little taken aback by the way that they talk to me. I thank God for it because I don't have to worry too much about saying too much or coming on too strong, because they'll let me know. I thank God for it because I don't have to worry too much about saying too much or coming on too strong, because they'll let me know they're very strong and they're very direct and I'm very grateful for that.
Speaker 3:Same with my four boys. My ego gets involved when, if they do bark back at me and I'm the same way as you, I think I'm being subtle. And then when I get done, I think was I just barking like five bullet points? And I too I read one of your quotes, susan, are you taking notes? You asked your son when you were coming up with the solution. I'm like, oh, I literally said like you should maybe write some of these down, you know, and I thought, oh my God, did I just say that? Yeah, I do. I worry a lot. I love my daughters-in-law, but I don't want them talking behind my back like, holy crap, your mom is really too strong. I think I'm being subtle, but I don't know, they probably are talking behind your back.
Speaker 1:I know mine do. I said recently to my eldest son, jake, my husband and I were bickering. Luckily, today I read a piece in the New York Times about how bickering is okay. It was a big relief. But anyway, I said something to my son like I know it's hard, for his wife's name is Silke. I know it's hard for Silke. She doesn't like it when we bicker because her parents don't. They're very harmonious. And he said it's true, she doesn't. A big cloud thought bubble came up in my head. Oh my God, it's true, she doesn't A big cloud thought bubble came up in my head. Oh my God, what's she saying about me? How much do they talk about how horrible I am at bickering in front of them? And then I thought too bad. So what? That's what people do they talk about each other?
Speaker 2:And I also wanna say I'm listening to all of you talk about boys. There's a real difference between adult children as girls and boys, between adult children as girls and boys. My son does come back at me and say, mom, don't say that, my daughter can take it more sensitively. I think that's how you build relationships. I think, without bickering, you have a false relationship.
Speaker 1:Oh, you should read this piece in the Times. It'll make you very happy, Okay.
Speaker 2:I will. You know it's very early in Denver so I have not read the New York Times yet, but anyway, I just really believe that bickering and sometimes tears at the end are what bring you closer. I think it's held true, but anyway, I want to go through your journey. When you wrote this article in 2013, you were ready to become a Buddhist monk or start a Buddhist group.
Speaker 2:Now you're talking like oh, I'm so strong, I tell them what I think, I don't care if they talk about me. Suddenly you're like, oh my gosh, a whole different strong. I tell them what I think, I don't care if they talk about me. Suddenly you're like, oh my gosh, a whole different person. Can you take us some steps through this journey and also address how it changed when you did have daughter-in-laws? I don't have daughter-in-laws. Well, I guess I have a fiance-in-law and girlfriends and that sort of thing, and I'm always walking on eggshells, but I want to hear your journey a little bit.
Speaker 1:Okay, let me just start by saying that, if I sound all strong and clear, it's only 10, 24 here. The day is young. Wait till something happens later in the day and I fall apart, and then that actually is part of my answer. So, yeah, so that was a very rough time. My middle son had gone through a really brutal string of really what felt to him and therefore to me at the time like catastrophes, and they really were terrible. It was a time of real suffering and I'll get back to that in a minute.
Speaker 1:I have a moderate contemporary story to tell you about my sister that relates to that. But I thought I couldn't stand it and I couldn't stand watching him be in so much pain. I couldn't stand how helpless I felt. And just as we've been talking about it began to dawn on me that my coping skills for myself and my ways of helping him had to be totally different than they had been when he was seven or 10. The problems were different and my role in it was different, and that's what led me to write that piece.
Speaker 1:The good news is that my son is more resilient than I thought he was at that time and maybe I was able to provide some of the support that was useful to him, but I don't know that that really had anything to do with it.
Speaker 1:But he got through that really tough time and, after all you both probably know I see this now with my students at Williams your early 20s can be really brutal and if anything is going on either in your personal life, like a breakup or a job problem or an illness, a calamity, or in this right now, in 2022, a world calamity, being in your early 20s is just brutal, because you feel you're supposed to be propelling forward and doing things and accomplishing things and getting to be on your own and you feel totally punched in the gut about life. But he was resilient and he got through that period of time and I think that I began to think a lot about some of the things you two have brought up how to calm down a little bit, how to step back, how to trust my kids to figure things out, how to not try to rush in and fix everything, how to just listen. I mentioned that in that column not try to rush in and fix everything.
Speaker 3:How to just listen, I mentioned that in that column.
Speaker 1:My eldest son said at the time about a different problem that he was having, not quite as intense, but also a real problem. He said Mom, I'm not trying to get you to come up with a solution, I just want you to listen. I still struggle with that. They still vent to me. I live right next door to two of them. The third is a little different in the way he and I communicate and I still have to remind myself don't fix, don't solve, don't try to be all cheerful and just listen and I'm better at that with my friends. So partly it's learning how to copy my friend self. When I'm listening to my kids.
Speaker 1:I don't really have much more that would be interesting to say a thing about my journey except to my kids. I don't really have much more that would be interesting to say about my journey except that my kids went on growing up and they're wonderful people and I'm very lucky because I adore them and they like me too. I actually say that not to boast, but because it goes back to the comment about relationship versus job. I just like to talk to them and be with them and I like who they are and like what they do. That really matters as your kids get older that you find ways not just to be a parent but to just enjoy them, and if you do, they're likely to enjoy you, and that becomes more and more important as they become more and more independent and grown up. So that son is as I mentioned. He's married, he has a wonderful career and he has an incredibly cute little boy.
Speaker 2:Are the grandchildren both boys, by the way.
Speaker 1:No, oh, okay, you got a girl. Yeah, I got a girl, I do too. Middle son, the one I wrote the piece about has a little boy. Do too. Middle son, the one I wrote the piece about has a little boy, henry, and he's well, he's almost three, I guess. And then my eldest son, his older brother, had a little girl a few months later, and they are the funniest dynamic duo. Her name is Lena, so Henry.
Speaker 1:It's funny because my paternal grandfather was named Henry and my maternal grandmother was named Lena and because my parents were divorced, henry and Lena were from the different parts of the family and didn't like each other. But this Henry and Lena really love each other and we laugh. We say finally, henry and Lena want a hug. Oh my gosh that's so beautiful.
Speaker 2:I want to ask you about the transition to daughter-in-laws and significant others and in your article you talked about your son breaking up with someone. He was heartbroken. Then he met someone else. How do you welcome that person? Well, how do you handle it if you don't really like that person?
Speaker 1:Oh boy, Well, I'm lucky. I adore my daughters-in-law. I adore. I have very different relationships with each of them. They're very different people, but they're both feel lucky and I feel my sons are lucky. I feel my daughters-in-law are lucky too, because they got great guys and my youngest son is seeing someone that I also adore and think the world of, but that's a newer relationship. So one time but my sons have dated people I wasn't crazy about and that I was a mess that freaked me out.
Speaker 1:And one time and my son knows this, so I don't mind saying that on the podcast One time I, in between serious relationships, my eldest son dated someone that I couldn't stand and it freaked me out. I thought, oh, his life will be hell and so will mine, I think you should be a stand-up comedian.
Speaker 1:Tell my students that I will. I will, anyway. So I said to my best friend, who's a clinical psychologist, I said, oh my God, what am I going to do when? When should I say something? Yeah, I need to tell him. It's just like what we've been talking about. I said I need to tell him. She's a bad choice. And we agreed I was going to wait two more weeks and then I was going to say something. And wouldn't you know, he broke up with her within those two weeks and now he smiles this tolerant sort of bemused smile and he says that was never a serious thing, mom, that was just really fun for an interlude. And so you know phew, I'm wiping my brow because I just we both dodged a bullet with that one, so I'm lucky.
Speaker 1:That said, I will agree that it's a little complicated and because my daughters-in-law live right next door, it's even more complicated. I'm right up in their grill all the time and because of the pandemic I helped a lot, especially in the beginning, in the first six months, when there was no child care available but all my kids and their partners were working. I was very involved. I helped a lot, and I had to because of the pandemic. It made me super attached to my little grandchildren, and then probably more in their grill even than I would have been, because we were each other's only dinner company. So we'd have dinner once a week together. Other than that, you'd never see anybody, as you all know, for weeks and months on end. So, learning how to shut my mouth to paraphrase your podcast bite your tongue, and also, in my case, I've learned recently quite painfully, that I have such an overexpressive face. Oh, me too. Oh boy, oh boy, oh boy oh.
Speaker 3:Oh boy I don't know how to play poker, but I wait, doesn't a mask help with that? You've got half of your. You've got half of your face not showing.
Speaker 1:Oh no not with your kids? Yeah, because they're in your pod Val.
Speaker 2:They just, they just see my eyes and they know what I'm thinking. It's terrible.
Speaker 1:And so I have learned to walk into the other room and cook. I'm not kidding you, something's happening with the little kids. I get worried they're going to fall or that someone's not paying attention when the kid is trying to do something. I think is really important for them to say something. I want some grownup to hear them say, and I just like go into the kitchen right now and stir the soup.
Speaker 3:Susan, I have a question about all this. So one thing that you said really I just from talking to you this past 30 minutes you have a very humble side and that's probably really refreshing for your daughters-in-law, even if you say the words that come on strong or whatever. Daughters-in-law, even if you say the words that come on strong or whatever it sounds like. You also talk a lot about your foibles and ways, the times you screwed up, and that's probably a really gentle way to let your ego step back and let them hear that, even though you're a psychologist and you know everything, you didn't know everything back at the time you know, and I think that's you know.
Speaker 3:I try to do more of that. I try to really compliment my daughter-in-law when I see something great and I talk a lot about how I screwed up. You know, I think I was a great parent on the flip side, but there were so many things I didn't know I was just winging it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think the role of mother-in-law is. So I don't know whether the word is freighted or weighted, but, like you said, if you also have this added thing that you have some expertise as a researcher or scholar in that area, it's kind of a heavy baggage. So I don't know whether that humility helps much. You'd have to interview my daughter's-in-law about that. Yeah, that's next. Yeah, you get them and promise them anonymity so they tell you the truth. Right, yeah, I try. I mean, the thing is about the best parenting thing. I just would say, even if this rubs you the wrong way, forgive me, life has made me more humble and I'm not sure there is like best parents.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1:You know, if you really love your kids and you reflect on things once in a while, then you're doing pretty well. You're right, yeah, otherwise, it's a contest and it's a performance and it's and who knows what's best. I mean, it's just stumbling along, hoping that more of the time, you, you help each other and like each other than the other, than the opposite. You know what I mean.
Speaker 3:Susan, I have one really specific question. Sure, and it has to do with different personality types. I love all the Myers-Briggs personality indicators and stuff like that. My sisters and I, we love typing our kids and our family and all of that. But if you truly have, you know you have different personalities with each child, as you said. And then the daughters and sons-in-law come in and you not only have different personalities there, but they've been maybe raised differently.
Speaker 3:So now everything gets a little bit more complicated with dials. Can you touch a little bit on that, because it's different approaches for different scenarios, I guess, and sometimes that's rough.
Speaker 1:I think that's really key. I think that's a really important point. So one thing that I've learned by having daughters-in-law and now, you know, grandchildren is that these other parents are part of the package, which thank God they are. They have their own experiences growing up, part of the package which, thank God they are. They have their own experiences growing up. I'll give you a very concrete example. It may not be the most important, but it's an easy one to talk about because it's so concrete.
Speaker 1:One of my daughters-in-law grew up with a very strong point of view and a very strong sort of tradition of believing that sugar was very bad, didn't eat sugar growing up. Her parents believed in a very sort of I don't know what the word would be they were very diet conscious and very interested in natural foods. But not I am too. Actually, I'm obsessed with cooking. We're all huge eaters. Huge cooks love healthy food, but I love sugar and I love to bake, and my kids grew up on a steady diet of sweets, as did I.
Speaker 1:In my most recent book, which is not about this topic at all, I started off talking about a visit to the candy store. So, honestly, it's easy to talk about because it's not quite so loaded, or well, it is a little loaded but it's not as amorphous as some bigger, heavier emotional issue. But it bothers my daughter-in-law that often there are sweets in the house, that I get so excited over what I'm going to bake, that her son has learned that when he comes over here there's a good chance there'll be a cookie or something. And I wouldn't say that I've handled that that well. And part of what I've grappled with is that it's not just her, it's not an idea or a belief that she sort of pulled out of a magazine or a podcast. It's how she was raised, yeah, yeah, and I have to respect that and that's been a struggle for me actually.
Speaker 2:You were writing this article in 2013,. Your husband's role. Where was he in this whole parenting dilemma and parenting adult kids? How did he feel, what did he share with you and how did it evolve?
Speaker 1:I would say that in our marriage like many marriages of that era maybe not so much anymore I was the more involved parent. I mean I don't know how else to put it, that's kind of blunt. But he was a loving dad and he was here and he was very powerful, important force in their lives. But I was sort of the active one, let's just say. And he, by temperament, is quieter, he's slightly more reserved and you know, he's a little more at times disengaged. You know all these words have a good side and a bad side. So trying to convey the good side and the bad side, and so I don't. He was pretty distraught over our son's pain Actually there are a lot of ways in which they're quite alike and I think it pained him. But he never has felt the impulse to to change things, to fix things, to get involved. I went to all the parent-teacher conferences. I was mostly the one. I once counted up how many times I went to the ER and it was something like 48 times.
Speaker 1:Me too yeah that's a terrible gender thing to say, but it's true. Yeah, true, more typical if you have boys. And so I was at more like I was at 40 of those ER visits on my own. That is to say that I think he was a little quieter and in some ways maybe that was better.
Speaker 1:At one point I wanted him to intercede with someone on behalf of my son, an employer who had done something terrible to my son, unethical, and I I had. I really had to push my husband to do it and he really didn't want to. I'll never know, was he right to be have the impulse to stay out of it, or was he wrong and I was right to push him? He did it. Then he went and talked to this person to no avail, but at least my son felt. I thought my son felt supported by us and protected by us, which I thought at the time he needed. So that's where he was, and even now he tends to take a little bit more of a backseat but on the other hand, also be a little calmer, sort of take the long view. So that's how I would answer that.
Speaker 2:So I want to ask you something about that. I have a very similar husband. What I sometimes do and I'd love to know if you ever did this or what your opinion is, because I'm a talker and I'm most involved and they read my eyes and everything that you said we could be twins. We could be twins. I sometimes have my husband say something that I think is important to them, because they listen to it more, because he doesn't say that much.
Speaker 1:Well, that's interesting. First of all, I never would occur to me to have those kinds of thoughts. I just have to be honest about the budget. I'm impressed, but I'd never do that. I'm always sure I can say it better, even when I can't. I just don't know how to answer that. No, that was never me. Maybe I'm wrong, maybe I should?
Speaker 2:I just feel like it's kind of like when he speaks they listen. When I speak, they're like here she goes again. Yeah, you have a good dynamic.
Speaker 1:We have a slightly different dynamic. There was a movie called the Proposal.
Speaker 2:I just oh, that's really such a silly movie. But I've watched it too, and I think Betty White is in it.
Speaker 1:That's why we all watched it.
Speaker 1:Well, so it just came up the other day in some memoriam. But Mary Steenburgen says to her husband she at one point she's mad at how her husband has treated the daughter or the son-in-law or whatever it is, and she says you have to make this right. And the husband he like goes, oh okay, and trudges over to make it right. And I remember feeling jealous, like thinking why can't I just say to my husband, you, I should shut up and I can't fix it and I shouldn't be trying to. Or if I think I really have something to say, I have to say it for myself.
Speaker 2:Interesting yeah.
Speaker 3:I have a question, Denise, real fast, Go ahead Val.
Speaker 2:And then I have one more, and then we're going to wrap up Go ahead, val.
Speaker 3:Oh boy, I have so many questions. But, susan, what if you observe that somebody is hurting your adult child, and I don't mean that literally, but maybe there's a controlling person in their lives or something that's impacting them and is pushing them down a little bit? Say, it's a brother and a sister, okay, and they're both adults, but one just always puts down the other, puts down the other, and it's making the other one act a certain way. Is there ever a time that you could come in and try to gently, let each see each other's point of view, any kind of involvement that way, or is that really dangerous?
Speaker 1:It's so funny that you bring this up now, because my family is going through something at several generations that has to do with this question. My three sons are quite close with each other, but that's not to say they don't have tangles. I have learned, sort of by being a sibling with a parent of my own, that there's almost no good way to get involved in that. So 95% of the time I just try to listen to both. When there's a tension or an upset or a hurt feeling or something, some of the time the only thing I feel I can say is you two should talk. Oh, that's good. And then there's one little piece that I've learned over the years that helps me, which is one thing you can do is pass on good things. So when one of my kids appreciates or says something wonderful about the other, I'm happy to pass that on, because that can only be good and they may not be expressing those things to each other.
Speaker 1:How can it ever hurt to hear that someone in your family loved you or appreciated something you did or felt loved by you? And sometimes you can add a little, not to bring up sugar again, but you can add a little sugar to things by doing that. It can only be good. The one thing that you never should do is pass on bad things. I just don't see how that ever is good, exactly, and when your kids are grown? I mean, you guys are the ones that were emphasizing the power of stepping back and stepping aside and creating some distance, and in this case, this is one place where I would wholeheartedly agree with you. They have to get good at working out their relationships with one another, so, unless you're saying something that makes them feel better about each other, say nothing.
Speaker 2:Bite your tongue. Yeah, you were talking about your son's living next door and the daughter in law's living next door. Two grandchildren living next door, Actually, my neighbor across the street. Her daughter lives next door and I'm very close to the little grandkids. They're my grandkids because I don't have any. But I always wonder how the other parents feel, like the in-laws they're in your little pod, Everyone's all together. How do the other parents deal with that, Like if I was the parent that lived in? You know you're in Williamstown, I assume, right?
Speaker 1:Well, South County of Berkshire County. I live in New Marlborough.
Speaker 2:The in-laws are in California or whatever it might be, and you're in your little pod, growing so close to these little kids and having this great experience. How do you deal with that? And how do the girls deal with it with their parents? And how do you? Do you engage the in-laws at?
Speaker 1:all, do you have another two or three hours? Well, I will say one thing. So one of my daughters-in-law her parents, live right nearby so it's not quite as unequal or asymmetrical as you might think and her, her mom is. Her parents aren't married, but her mom is very involved, a devoted grandmother and a devoted mom, and so that's nice, because there's not quite the asymmetry that you might think. My other daughter-in-law, her parents live about five hours away and sometimes I do think they each feel a little left out. Needless to say, I am a completely besotted grandmother and very I'd love to be with little kids and I love these little kids. So so, yeah, I think sometimes that does create some tension and I think my daughters-in-law are very alive to that and probably have to negotiate things of which I'm unaware, like hurt feelings or feeling left out.
Speaker 3:And Denise. I'm on the I'm on the flip side of that. So I've got my oldest lives in Berkeley, california, with two of our grandkids and they live fairly close to my daughter-in-law's parents. Of course I'd love to have them closer, but what I tell myself is if anybody else is going to get to be with that family and those kids, I love that it's them. I'm very lucky that I love them and I'm like, okay, they're holding down the fort until we get to come visit. That's such a great way of thinking about it. And again, just look at the bright side. Not everybody has that, but that's what gets me through.
Speaker 1:I think that's wonderful. I want to just correct one thing that you might think If you have a neighbor who can see this for yourself, it's paradise when it's paradise, but not always. So having them right next door means that I have to see bad things up close too. I mean, everybody makes fun of what happened when my middle son, when they were going to have a home birth and I could see the light on in their room and I just knew that labor wasn't progressing. I was so beside myself that my friend had to drive from Williamstown an hour to get here to drink scotch with me and wait and we kept peeking out the window to see if the light was still on. It was horrible If you're not a standup comic.
Speaker 2:you need to write a sitcom, Susan, but anyway.
Speaker 1:So what I mean is it's a mixed bag, and then when we are not getting longer, I put my foot in my mouth or there's tension. It's kind of awful. It's right up in our, you know, everybody's right up in each other's business and it's painful. There's very little distance, you know. I told you my youngest son. He lives in New York, a couple of hours away, and we're quite close and we talk a lot, but sometimes I only hear about a bad thing after it's happened and things are OK. And that has its own positive side. I'll give you an example. This morning I got a text from one of my sons saying that school had been canceled daycare because of the snow. There's a lot of snow where we are today and I had to write right away and say well, I can't help because I'm doing a podcast and then I have a meeting and what I mean to say is it is paradise a lot of the time, but it's not simple. Let me put it that way.
Speaker 2:Okay, we always end our episodes, susan, with our guests giving two or three takeaways that they want our listeners to take away from the episode. Can you provide those for us? I can try.
Speaker 1:Okay, I'll say two. One is, I've already said, think less of your relationship with your grown kids as a job that you can perfect or do right or wrong, and think of it more as a relationship that you hope that you and your kid will get a lot out of. Relationships are supposed to be a source of pleasure and support and sustenance, and that's true for your kids as well as for your friendships or your partners. So that's one. It's a relationship, not a job. And the second is a piece of good news, which is your kids go on changing and growing and the way they are that when they're 22 or 25 is not the way they'll always be.
Speaker 1:And the wonderful thing I've learned is, if you're lucky, they keep getting stronger. They still can figure out new ways of coping, they can still find new strength, they get stronger and their life branches out. And a final piece of good news with any luck they develop other close relationships that kind of bear some of the weight of their pain. So when your kid is 24 and they're going through a lot of pain, you may be their main source of support. But when they're 30 or 35 and they're going through some pain, with any luck. They have a very close friend or a partner who also can share some of that role with you. Wow, that's really amazing.
Speaker 2:I'm going to say thanks to both of you, val, thanks for co-hosting with me. It's been wonderful I had a great time, thank you. Susan, I am so glad I gave you a ring while I was in New York City and you answered the phone, because this has been such a delight and you've been funny and informative and everything else. Don't you agree, val yeah?
Speaker 3:Thank you for so many examples and anecdotes. It turns a very difficult topic very concrete. So thank you.
Speaker 1:Well, it was a pleasure to talk to you both.
Speaker 2:Okay, go hug those grandbab. Okay, take care, bye-bye. Well, that's a wrap. Thank you, susan for joining and Val, thanks again for co-hosting. Ellen will be back soon. I think Susan brought some great levity to this whole topic of building relationships with our adult kids. I hope her humor and insight helps us all get through the day and our journey. Remember, it's not a job, it's a relationship. There's so much more coming up on Bite your Tongue, season 2. We're going to try to bring more racial and economic diversity into the podcast, with stories from many men and women who've walked the walk and talked the talk. So stay tuned. Thank you again to Connie Fisher, our audio engineer, and remember to send your questions for our special we're On it episodes. Follow us on social media and until next time, remember, sometimes you just have to bite your tongue.
