Bite Your Tongue: The Podcast
Did you ever expect being the parent of an adult child would be so difficult? Introducing "Bite Your Tongue," a look at exploring that next chapter in parenting: building healthy relationships with adult children. From money and finance to relationships and sibling rivalry, we cover it all. Even when to bite your tongue! Join your host Denise Gorant as she brings together experts, parents and even young adults to discuss this next phase of parenting. We will chat, have some fun and learn about ourselves and our kids along the way! RSSVERIFY
Bite Your Tongue: The Podcast
When Love Feels Like Judgment: Navigating Connection with our Adult Children
What if the words you use to show love are the very ones your adult child hears as judgment? That tension—care that lands as critique—drives so many family conflicts, and Deborah Tannen gives us the language map to change it.
We sit down with the Georgetown linguist and bestselling author to explore conversational style, meta-messages, and the subtle ways timing, tone, and turn‑taking shape intimacy at home.
Tannen shares vivid stories—from “Do you like your hair that long?” to car‑ride silences—that reveal how message and meta‑message diverge, why “helpful” advice stings, and how indirect questions can be invitations to co‑decide rather than games to decode. We trace the fault lines of gendered talk, where solutions collide with “troubles talk,” and show practical scripts to ask consent before giving feedback, translate intent across styles, and keep curiosity alive without sounding intrusive.
We also dig into complementary schismogenesis—the spiral where differences push each other to extremes—and how to stop the chase/withdraw dance by adjusting cadence and expectations. Birth order roles resurface in adulthood, turning firstborn competence into control and younger resistance into reflex; naming those roles loosens their grip. Tannen’s take on apologies is both moving and actionable: why impact matters more than defense, how a simple acknowledgment can heal years of hurt, and why late‑life apologies carry disproportionate power. Along the way we address the “big three” hot zones—hair, clothes, weight—plus social media’s sting of exclusion, and we offer boundary phrases that preserve both bond and autonomy.
If you’ve ever thought, “I was just caring,” while someone heard, “You’re not enough,” this conversation offers clear tools to bridge the gap. Listen, share with your family, and try one shift this week: ask before advising, label your intent, or offer a four‑part apology.
This conversation is filled with insights that can help you strengthen your most important relationships. You may also enjoy this Youtube video of a talk Dr. Tannen gave in Amsterdam highlighting the conversational differences between men and women. We found it fascinating.
🎧 Listen now and join us in exploring the power of language, connection, and understanding.
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Thank you to Connie Gorant Fisher, our audio engineer.
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Caring and criticizing are created by the same words. No matter how convinced you are that you are caring, this is parent, if you're giving advice or suggestion, it's criticism on some level. And from the point of view of the adult child, yeah, you're feeling criticized, but it's caring when they say no one's gonna tell you because they don't love you as much as I do, there's a level of truth of that.
SPEAKER_00:Hey everyone, welcome to Bite Your Tongue the podcast. Join me, your host, Denise Corinth, as we explore the ins and outs of building healthy relationships with our adult children. Together, we'll speak with experts, share heartfelt stories, and get timely advice, addressing topics that matter most to you. Get ready to dive deep and learn to build and nurture deep connections with our adult children. And of course, when to bite our tongues. So let's get started. Hello, everyone, and welcome back to Bite Your Tongue. Today's gonna be one great episode. I'm so excited. We're welcoming Dr. Deborah Tannin. She's a distinguished professor of linguistics at Georgetown University and one of the world's leading experts on how everyday talk shapes our closest relationships. We are so fortunate to have her with us today. Her groundbreaking bestseller, You Just Don't Understand, changed the way the world thinks about communication between men and women. Since then, she's written a series of books that dive into family talk, including I only say that because I love you, which features the much discussed chapter, I'm still your mother, and you're wearing that. I think all of us can relate to those titles because they're phrases we've heard or even used ourselves at one time or another. But really, what makes Dr. Tannin's work so special is she doesn't just analyze conversations. She shows us how even the simplest remarks, remarks we make every day, carry years of history, emotion, and meaning. And most importantly, she offers tools to help us move past conflict and into deeper connection. So let's dive in. Welcome, Dr. Tan. And we are so glad you're with us today. And I want to say that I especially loved your books and talks, how you gave personal stories and concrete examples. I'm hoping you're going to share some of those today.
SPEAKER_01:I definitely think in terms of examples.
SPEAKER_00:And I think it helps our listeners. Your career began in linguistics, yet you've become one of the most recognized voices on how language impacts our personal relationships. How did you move towards this whole area of family talk?
SPEAKER_01:And what you would call a sociolinguist. So from the very start, yes, it's the field of linguistics, but it was how people use language in their everyday lives. And it's kind of hard to separate language from relationships and you know what we're trying to do with it. Let me start with how I got into the whole field, which is actually building. Okay. Okay, go ahead. For my dissertation, I was interested in the issue of, and I'll talk about this all the time, what I call conversational style. The idea that we're just talking, but we have to make some decision about how loudly or softly, how close or far we're going to stand, how direct or indirect we're going to be, on and on and on, all these decisions. And we think we're just talking. But depending on the culture, uh, which could be part of the country that you grew up in, the ethnic background, personality, we have different conversational styles. If you talk to someone whose style is similar, chances are they what you what you mean and what they hear is going to be relatively similar. And if their styles are different, then chances are they won't. They may misunderstand what you intend and they will get impressions of you as a person. Okay, so I was going to write a dissertation and I record I was recording all my conversations at the time, but I settled on one that was a dinner table conversation, happened to be Thanksgiving, six of us all single. Uh it was me, my best friend, his brother, his former wife, another friend of his, and a friend of that friend. So I was gonna look at each individual's conversational style and see how it affected the conversation. Just by chance, I and my friend and his brother are from New York City, raised in New York City, and New York Jewish background, although it's East European Jewish background. I have written an article about it calling it New York Jewish conversational style. It's East European. I mean, it's kind of New York and it's Eastern European. And then the other two were from California, and then one was from British. Well, it turned out I couldn't say anything about the conversational styles other than the three New Yorkers. The others had a hard time getting the floor. Now, it wasn't that they never talked, you know, if they they might get the floor at some point and tell a very long story, but they couldn't be part of the give and take. So I ended up writing about that. It's kind of emblematic of the uh point about conversational style that I developed in all my books afterwards. Just take the issue of getting the floor. We all know conversation is a matter of you take a turn, I take a turn. How do you know when the other person's turn is done and your turn is uh is up? Or how do you know whether they're stopping because they're giving up, you know, they're panning over the floor, or they're just catching their breath. This is something that I often I do illustrate with my two fingers up. I think you can imagine what I'm saying without seeing the two fingers up. If one person is expecting a slightly shorter pause than the other, the shorter pause comes first. And so you get the impression the other person's done or they're not saying anything. You don't want there to be an uncomfortable silence, so you fill it and you do it again and you do it again. And actually, with uh the style that I ended up calling high involvement, and I can explain that too later, you might not actually wait for silence. People kind of run down.
SPEAKER_00:I'm an interrupter.
SPEAKER_01:Well, this is one of my major, major points. So I'm glad you gave me the opportunity to say that right up front. The impression is interruption, but it's not the intention. In co-stylistic speech, in other words, among ourselves, nobody felt they had to stop just because someone else started. You trust the other person. If they're not done, they keep talking and you back off and you find another time. The most extreme example was one of the uh it was actually my friend's brother. He was trying to get the floor to say something, it wouldn't work, he'd back off, he'd try again, he backed off seven times, and he got the floor and he was happy, and we were happy. He wanted to say it and he said it. The Californians, if they tried once and it wasn't picked up, they didn't try again. So it's an economy. You're trusting the other person to find their way in versus you trust other people to let you in. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:Let's start with the book You Don't Understand, because the one chapter about mothers and daughters really stood out. So take us from there to then your two books on the relationship and family.
SPEAKER_01:Okay. Yeah, sure. So in the book You Just Don't Understand, which is about women and men, right, which was actually my 10th book. Okay. Second for general readers.
SPEAKER_00:Well, Matt also became a New York Times bestseller. That was the huge one. That was when your sister said you deserve a little bit of attention or your 15 minutes of fame, right? That's sisters for you, yeah. Yep.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. So I had written a book called That's Not What I Meant, which was laying out for general readers all this idea about conversational style that I mentioned. Uh it had one chapter on gender, and that's the one everybody wanted to talk about. Right. So that was then my next book. I was not a specialist in gender, I was a specialist in this idea of conversational style. But I approached the women and men as cross-cultural communication because it shared a lot with that framework.
SPEAKER_00:I want to tell my listeners that this book is so much better than Venus and Mars, whatever that book was called. So if you think you've read it all, pick up her book. You just don't understand. Now go ahead.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah, thank you. Thank you for saying that. That one did come out after I'd been on the bestsellers for a couple of years. So take an example. A couple of riding in the car. And this was actually asked was it was the guy who asked me this. He said he's riding in the car with his wife, uh, coming back from something the night before. And she asked him, Are you thirsty, dear? Would you like to stop for a drink? And he wasn't. So he said no. And then later he discovered that she was kind of annoyed because she had wanted to stop. And he said, Why does she play games with me? Why doesn't she just tell me that she wanted to stop for a drink? And I said, I'm pretty sure she didn't expect a yes-no answer. She probably expected something like, I don't know, how do you feel about it? And then she could say, I don't know, how do you feel about it? And they make a decision taking other people's preferences into account. And that's the key. You don't make a demand, you find out how where other people are. So she was opening a space, opening a conversation by which she would get to say what she wanted, he would get to say what he wanted. And they might have gone or not gone, but they showed consideration for the other. His answer, no, to her, meant, I don't care what you want, only what I want matters. But that's a different economy. Again, in his style, if she wants to, she would say it. And if he didn't agree, he would say, I don't really want to. Is that all right? Or if he wanted to, he'd say, Okay. So people again trust the word linguists call the style that I've described as the wife asking indirectness. She was communicating, but not putting everything in words. By the way, we're all indirect, and I can give examples many, many more examples of that. So that would be an example, and it turned out to be very, very common between women and men. Uh somebody came up to me after talking. He said, You know, I with my wife and I were reading the book in the car, and she was reading it to me, and she read that thing, and I said, you know, we wouldn't do that. And then she said, Do you want to listen to music? And he said, Nope. So another just uh quick example. It's often pointed out that a woman will talk about a problem, and the guy suggests a solution, and she's frustrated. She wanted to talk about it. There, too, I would say it's not so much whether you want a solution or not. You're opening up a certain kind of conversation. So you say a describe a problem to a woman friend. She might say, Oh, really? You know, why do you think he said that? And then what did you say? And then, well, what do you think you might do? And what do you think he might do if you do that? You do end up getting to a solution, but you have a conversation about it. And that shows your interest, it shows that you care.
SPEAKER_00:I I could talk for an hour about husbands and wives, but that's a whole nother conversation. So I want to get into what my listeners want. Maybe someday, if you're open, we'd do another one on men and women. I would love to, because it's so great. But in one of your talks, you shared that you spoke with many mothers and daughters. And when you spoke with ones that said, we don't have any conflict, I think the mother said, I bite my tongue, and the daughter said, My mother just isn't judgmental. So, since the podcast is called Bite Your Tongue, you can imagine it struck a chord with me. But here's the question that I raise how do you be authentic with your adult children? Did you talk about the what shows caring, what shows criticism? What are techniques to be authentic, but not feel like you're criticizing, not biting your tongue all the time?
SPEAKER_01:Right. And I and I will start with that was kind of uh that was the exception.
SPEAKER_00:Right. Yeah, yeah. That's what you said. Very much an exception.
SPEAKER_01:The most common complaint I heard from adult children about their mothers, she's critical. Right. The most common complaint I heard from mothers of adult daughters, I can't open my mouth. She takes everything as criticism. And maybe this is a bit of linguistics. We are inclined to think words can only mean one thing. So I know you've been critical. So you say you're not, you're being disingenuous. I know I'm just wanted to help you. You're telling me I'm criticizing. Why are you so sensitive? What's the matter with you? They're both the true. They're both true. And you have to hold in your mind if you offer advice or suggestion for improvement, there is implied criticism. Doing something wrong, you wouldn't need the advice. I I like to tell this example was my mother. Okay. I was visiting, they were retired, they were older visiting, and my mother said, Do you like your hair that long? And I laughed. And she said, Why? And I said, Well, it was when I was writing the book. And I said, And so many women are telling me that their mothers are critical of their hair. I talked about three things hair, clothes, and weight. My mother said, I wasn't criticizing. And then later in the visit, I said, Mom, what do you think of my hair? She said, I think it's a little too long. You know, there's an assumption. Part of it is many of our conversations have a history. Yeah. So you know what your mother is inclined to not totally approve of or be concerned about. Okay.
SPEAKER_00:So are are you saying that as a mother of adult children, we really should never say anything? Because if your friend said to you, Do you like your hair? your friend actually could probably say directly, Deborah, I really like your hair shorter. And you would say, Do you? You know, tell me more.
SPEAKER_01:I might ask, by the way. Oh, I got my haircut. What do you think?
SPEAKER_00:Exactly. But your mother can't say that.
SPEAKER_01:Every one of us has to be an observer of our own interactions. If I say you should you should do something a certain way, it's going to be perfect for one person and terrible for someone else. This concept that we each have different conversational styles is really the bedrock. You have to start from that. You need antenna rolled out to see what is the kind of thing that gets a bad response and back off on those things. That kind of is summarizes what I was describing before. Okay. You think you're showing caring, and it's going to be taken as criticism. A woman told me this, a woman in her 60s. She said, My mother's losing her eyesight, but she can still spot a pimple across the room. Now, the mother is probably not thinking, I'm going to criticize. It's, I want to recommend this cream that I read about, or I bought you this cream. And who else thinks that that pimple is the main thing on your face? You. That's exactly right. So yeah, it's caring, but it also is criticizing. So realizing that the same words are doing both, the starting point.
SPEAKER_00:You know, another story you said that I just loved. And I just reminded me, I think your parents were in their 90s, your mother was very sick, you know, but your mother said something.
SPEAKER_01:I think the one you this might be this wasn't me if if this was it. Somebody told me that her mother was in the hospital. She was so concerned that she got a call, you know, she jumped on an airplane, comes into the hospital room, bends down to kiss her mother, and her mother says, When's the last time you did your roots? Oh, and she loved it. She loved it because it meant my mother's okay. Well, so, and I think this is quite true. You said, but it's really caring. Yes, but it's also really criticism. We have to keep in our minds that that it's both. And this idea that to be authentic is to say it. You know, there's lots of things we don't say. It's nothing inauthentic about not saying lots of things that we think. The the term we use meta communication.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, let's talk about these meta messages.
SPEAKER_01:Absolutely. Have a conversation. This is what I think is going on. I think I'm showing caring. I'm just now I realize that I'm actually criticizing. Right. But the other side too. I love this one. A woman told me, thank you so much. You know, this was having read my book, thank you so much for that book. She said, I visited my mother, and for the first time we didn't argue. And I said, That's so wonderful. You know, can you explain what was different? She said, Well, here's an example. Uh, while I was visiting her, I went shopping and I bought two pairs of socks, one black, one navy. The next day I was wearing one of the pairs of socks, and my mother said, Are you sure you're not wearing one of each color? And she said, In the past, I would have blown up. Mom, I have a master's degree, and you don't think I can match my socks. But she stopped for a second and she thought, Who else is gonna care about the color of my socks? So much of that is so true. And that was the connection I was gonna make way, way back. That to ask questions about you know how what's going on and what did you eat for dinner, and who did you meet, and how did you like it? And it shows all of that shows caring. And there's um, think of a woman who said uh about her mother, who else can I tell? I got a good deal on toilet paper, right? Caring about the details of your life. And that is more, tends to be more women than men. I mean, that's the kind of thing that I'm one of three sisters, and my father would. What do all you girls find to talk about?
SPEAKER_00:Why do you think sons don't have this situation as much with their parents or their mother?
SPEAKER_01:Well, one thing is I said hair closing weight. Right, right, right. It's appearance and women's appearance is much more scrutinized in our culture. And we have a lot more options that we have to choose from. Styles change. I often do this when I'm uh giving talks. Look around the room, I'll say, and the largest group I ever did this with was 2000 in the Kennedy Center concert hall. Okay. Look around. Do you see any two women with the same hairstyle? No, no, there's bangs, no bangs, short, colored, what color? You could endless, endless, endless. And yeah, there could be a guy with something unusual, you know, a ponytail or uh spiky uh stuff sticking up. But the most men make the choice of just this is a term we use in linguistics, it's unmarked. It doesn't get any attention, just neutral. We don't have a neutral. So that's two reasons right there. More attention on our appearance, and we have to choose from such a range of styles that any choice we make, somebody's gonna think we didn't make the right choice.
SPEAKER_00:I think that's true. I think must have to do something with personality too, because I know my son, I could say, Why are you wearing pants like that? And he would have no reaction to it. I don't know, these are in style now, or you know, I'm trying to get them a little shorter, blah, blah, blah. He for some reason doesn't take it as a criticism, he takes it as caring.
SPEAKER_01:Well, how much attention has he had to pay to his clothes? None. And how much is he going to be judged as a person based on his choice? Interesting. I'm gonna make one more, one more point about what's different. So much of what women do together is talk, a place of talk in a relationship, and nothing is true of all women and men. I have to say that as many times as you know, we can say it. But the tendency is for girls and women to spend more time sitting and talking. And we do troubles talk, you know, talking about things that are bothering us, talk about personal things. It's more sensitive. And we're talking more, so we have more opportunity to say the wrong thing. For most boys and men, they can be very good friends, but they won't talk as much. It's doing things together, it's being together. He plays tennis with the guy and she gets together with the wife. And this, I can't tell you how many people this similar thing has happened to. And she says, gee, you know, isn't that terrible that they're getting divorced? And he says, They are. I didn't know that. Oh, this is so true. This is so true. And he mentioned, no, you know, we're not talking about our marriage, we're playing tennis. I talk about that a lot with my friends. This is the explanation, and people trace this to kids, how we've used language growing up, that the little girl's gonna be sitting and talking and whispering in each other's ear.
SPEAKER_00:The boys are gonna be hitting each other and criticizing each other, and no one cares. All right, we need to talk about the meta messages, and then I also want you to talk about this concept, and I'm not gonna say it right complementary shimogenesis. How do you say schismogenesis? I should know that by speaking Greek, right? Schismogenesis, right? Okay, so let's do the meta messages and then the complementary schismogenesis, yes.
SPEAKER_01:Everything we say has these two levels. Message is the meaning of the words, meta message is what does it mean that we're saying these words in this way at this time in this relationship. Very often we end up arguing about the words, but it's the meta message, it's what we think the person is implying, what we think it says about what they how they feel about us. So, perfect example, my mother asking, Do you like your hair that long? That's the message. She's asking me if I like my hair that long. The meta message is your hair is too long. And I know it because the fact that she's asking a history that I I know she tended to think my hair was too long. And often that's the kind of thing that we are responding to.
SPEAKER_00:Can you give a couple more examples of that? Yeah, let me just give you some yeah.
SPEAKER_01:So two people are riding in a car and they're not talking. What's the meta message of that silence? Is it you're mad at me and that's why you're not talking? Is it you're so comfortable with me that you don't feel you have to talk? Is there something that I should be asking you and you're angry that I'm not asking you? So even no words can have these all these different messages. So true.
SPEAKER_00:Okay, let's go to complimentary complimentary schizmo genesis.
SPEAKER_01:You say it. Okay. This traces to an anthropologist, Gregory Bateson. He was married to Margaret Mead, and I like to say because how often do you have to say who a man is by telling you who his wife was?
SPEAKER_00:It's worth my It's definitely worth doing. Absolutely.
SPEAKER_01:So a schism is a split. Genesis is creation. Complementary schismogenesis is creation of a split in a complementary way. In other words, they go in opposite directions. So we have different styles. And you think, well, I'll just adjust a little bit and then you'll just adjust a little bit and won't things get better. Complimentary schismogenesis is what you do, whatever your style is, drives the person to more extreme versions of the other behavior. So here's an example. Okay. This is actually a real one. Uh so a guy was uh, this was a work situation. He was asking a particular woman if she wanted to have lunch with him, and she didn't. So she said, No, I'm kind of busy this week. And then later he asks, No, I'd really like to have lunch with you. And she said, You know, I'm really not feeling very well. And she gets more indirect. And finally he says, Would you please tell me, is it that you don't want to have lunch with me? I should stop asking, or is it really the case that you're so he's trying to get more direct to get her to tell him what she really thinks? That makes her practically aphasic, because there's no way she is going to look this man in the face and say, I don't want to have lunch with you. So she starts double talking to the person. So each one was driven to more extreme versions of the opposing behavior.
SPEAKER_00:Can can that happen in family relationships, do you think? Or how does it happen in family relationships?
SPEAKER_01:Um, time of style is different. It can happen. You know, the book I just finished, I sent the first draft off to my publisher.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, the one you were working on when we were going to do the interview and you needed to finish. Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_01:Apologies. Oh, I want to get into apologies. Okay. So you want an apology from somebody and they're not giving it. So you apologize to give them a good example. And they say, Yeah, you really shouldn't do that again. That's really bad. So you've made it worse rather than making it made it better. I apologize, you'll get a good idea. This is actually again true. Someone's had lunch with a guy, and he was just the whole time talking about himself. By the end, she said, Why are you telling me all this? And he said, I want to get to know you. So it sounds, but his idea of how to get to know you is I talk about myself and you talk about you, but you're not doing your part. So I tell more. And then you're talking so much that I really clam up and talk more. So what each one is doing is driving the other to a more extreme. That makes perfect sense. Let me give you this example of a student who compared her mother and her father and two different ones. My students observe their own behavior, and you know, so this is the one who really preferred her mother. She was sick. Normally she would talk to her mother, but this time her mother wasn't home. She talked to her father. Oh, Daddy, I feel terrible. You know, I have a sore throat. And uh and he said, Well, take Tylenol. She said, Well, I did, but it really didn't help. Uh well, go to the health center. There, everybody's sick, and I couldn't get an appointment. And he says, Well, can't help you then. This is real. And she wished her mother who would have said, Oh, I'm so sorry. I wish I was there to make you a cup of tea. You know, another one prefers the mother. Okay, so she w breaks up with her boyfriend. She feels really bad about it, and she tells both her parents and gets their advice. Her father never brings it up again. Every time she talks to her mother, How are you doing? How's he doing? Have you heard from him? Have you met anybody? Has he met anybody? Finally, she asks, Yeah, mom, please stop bringing it up. Uh, it it makes it harder. So then her mother feels bad. Then she feels bad that she made her mother feel bad. So this is also true. This paradox that every conversation we have to ask ourselves, are you showing interest or are you intrusive?
SPEAKER_00:Are you showing interest or are you intrusive? So it's really our job to examine that or talk openly about it to our adult child. Like, do I sound intrusive when I say this? If I do, let me know. Right.
SPEAKER_01:Or or even when you're not saying it. Right. Let's here's this issue, and I don't know which direction I go in, but now it's not happening right now. So if you tell me your experience with me, do I not ask enough?
SPEAKER_00:Yeah. So you also talk about balancing closeness and independence. And mothers and daughters particularly wrestle with wanting intimacy but independence, particularly the daughters, I think, want the independence. The mothers want the intimacy. And the daughters deserve the independence. As you said, I'm 55 years older and my mother still doesn't think I can match my socks. How do they reach that balance? Are do you have any suggestions?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I think talking about it is definitely important. Stepping back and trying to see it from the other's point of view. Maybe that's the most important thing you can do. Uh, we want to think we're a good person.
SPEAKER_00:Well, 99% of the time, I really think you are, and you mean well. I really do. And I do too.
SPEAKER_01:I often say mine is a rhetoric of good intentions. I love that a rhetoric of good intentions. I'm gonna save that.
SPEAKER_00:I'm a rhetoric of good intentions that don't always work.
SPEAKER_01:And sometimes people are frustrated, you know, sometimes people have bad intentions.
SPEAKER_00:All right, so you talk about this big three hair, clothes, and weight. And I'm gonna say your book was written long enough ago that I think some of that has yes, but no. I think mothers are a little more accepting the way their daughters are looking. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong, but other things come up, whether it be their lifestyle or their values. Um, people are taking so many different paths. You know, that's movement. That's how they raise their children is becoming really important.
SPEAKER_01:Whatever it is, it's gonna be different from what it what it was.
SPEAKER_00:What the hair, the weight, the clothes, the raising children, the living conditions, the career choices. Do you think social media has intensified this and made mothers, probably because they're more engaged in social media than the fathers, like, oh, my child will never be like Sally on, you know, whatever. Do you think there's some harm in social media with these relationships?
SPEAKER_01:Well, social media brings both harm and good on every level. Everything good is part harm. Um, when I talk to mothers, daughters, as well as sisters, women's relationships in general, friends, when they are hurt, when mothers were hurt, more often than not, it was not being included in something and not being invited to something. And that is an extremely common way of being hurt for women. There's reality behind it. When girls get mad at a girl, they lock her out. Boys don't do that. They might treat him badly, but they don't lock him out. And of course, in junior high, it gets quite really, really, really hard. Social media aggravates that because you see what everybody's doing and you're not there. You see all the things that were going on that you weren't invited to. So I think that makes it worse. That makes it worse.
SPEAKER_00:How about you describe family conversations as a dance between connection and control? What does that mean exactly? I don't think I say dance. Okay, maybe I added the word in dance. Sorry. All right, between connection and control. Um, I like the way it sounded.
SPEAKER_01:How about that? Yeah, the connection and control. Is is like the criticism and caring. You know, okay. All the C's. Want to be connected to each other. It's like the independence. We want to be connected, but we also want to be free and independent. Woman said about her daughter. You know, I understand she's getting older and she wants to break the bonds. And that's the bonds of bondage. But say that again.
SPEAKER_00:She wants to break the bond. Oh, bondage. Right. Okay. That's no control.
SPEAKER_01:That it doesn't become bondage. Bondage.
SPEAKER_00:Boy, there's a happy that is a dance, and there's a very thin wire you're walking on between bond and bondage.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. And again, what seems like the most perfect connection to one person is going to seem way overconnected to another and rejection to another. There's a lot of cultural difference here. There's cultures where women and men, by the way, they'll be holding hands all the time and hugging one.
SPEAKER_00:I've seen that. And other cultures where they never touch their kid at all. I really want to talk about family roles because I loved what you talked about with your sisters and this thing we carry on from childhood, eldest, peacemaker, rebel, and how it complicates communication as we come adults' roles.
SPEAKER_01:The oldest sister is the toughest role. It really is. It really is.
SPEAKER_00:I'm the youngest of three. And the middle is the best role, I'm going to tell you. There are so many different middles. Well, I'm talking about three, I guess. They for sort of forget about you and you can do your own thing.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Well, there's six years between my oldest and the next. Oh, okay. Like that's a oldest sister. You do. Yeah. They're both oldest. Right. Right. Okay. So go ahead. But oldest sisters are put in the often, not always often, put in the position of watching out for the young ones, taking care of them. You know, you watch them. My my mother definitely did that with my oldest sister. She calls herself a parentified child. She was put in that position, you know. I can't handle them. You take them. And she was great with us. Especially you. You were the rebel. Yeah, well, as a teenager, I drove my mother nearly into the grave.
SPEAKER_00:I think you drove her into the grave as a young adult. Sorry. Based on what I heard. That's all I can say.
SPEAKER_01:No, it was the and well, this is an interesting thing too. I'm a child of the 60s. My sister's a child of the 50s.
SPEAKER_00:Oh, that's a big change. Big difference. Yeah. Yeah.
SPEAKER_01:We're born into the same family, but it's a different family when each of us is born. Economic situation is different. They're going through in their lives is different. And how does that translate into adulthood? Well, I want to say one thing about the old okay, sorry. And this is a quote from Louisa May Alcara, I'm told. Another great woman. Yeah. The first child is pure poetry. All the rest are prose. Oh my gosh. The kind of attention that the first gets that is really irreplaceable.
SPEAKER_00:It's overwhelming.
SPEAKER_01:All the pictures of the first one are too busy for the others. But the downside is never resented. You know, you're not my mother. You take them for granted. I've, you know, anecdotes I've heard. You just assume the oldest one is going to do all the planning, and you just assume the oldest one is going to pick mom up and take her to church, even though she lives 45 minutes away and I live live 10 minutes away. It wasn't me, that was told me by someone else. Right, right.
SPEAKER_00:Do you think sometimes the oldest child thinks that they'll just do a better job? Absolutely. Like sometimes I think, yeah, sometimes I think it's my problem of thinking, let me take care of it because I'm better at it.
SPEAKER_01:And and a feeling that it's your job. I mean, you don't even think about it. Something has to be done. I should do it. I describe a lot about finding myself with my two sisters, and I become helpless.
SPEAKER_00:So let's talk about the power of apology, the focus, the impact, the intent.
SPEAKER_01:Well, yeah, that there's a lot of different ways to consider apologies. Many apologies don't have words at all. Let me start with the frustration that often women feel that apologies are very important and are more likely to apologize than men. Again, not everybody across the board, but tendency. Level on which if you apologize, you're kind of putting yourself in a position of weakness. And there's a level on which if you apologize, you're acknowledging that you care about the other person. And the tendency is for women to focus on that caring side. If he won't apologize, he doesn't care that he let me down. Tendency among men is okay, I committed a misdemeanor, but you want me to plead guilty to a felony? What is the big deal? Of course, I didn't do it on purpose. I love you. I wouldn't do that on purpose. So why are you insisting I apologize? So those two things uh are always there. And like all the conversational style differences I talk about, you can focus on one or the other. And if one is focused, focusing on one, the other on the other.
SPEAKER_00:Can you relate that to parent and adult child? Is the parent the first to apologize typically if there was a riff?
SPEAKER_01:Let me tell you, uh, one of the things that totally surprised me, totally surprised me in writing this book. How many people, when I said, You have any stories about apologies, told me about their parents. Interesting. That the parents apologized or don't. Well, it could be my parent apologized and it meant so much to me. Especially those were often end of life. Oh, interesting. Um, you know, my mother did all these, and you don't want to hear all the things that, but real, you know, real things that hurt the kid acronym. I wasn't really focusing on it, but before she died, my mother said I shouldn't have done that, and I I'm sorry. And it was huge, huge that she cared. She cared that it had that effect on me. And some of them were wishing a parent would apologize and the parent won't. Often those were about bringing a stepfather into the family.
SPEAKER_00:And then I and it's really sad that it's the end of life because really, if we could all pick ourselves up and realize there are no perfect parents, and uh every kid's going to be in therapy, however hard we tried, and apologize for what it was that we were not able to provide, it might make a huge difference. Yes.
SPEAKER_01:And it's quite astonishing how much it can mean. I was just astonished. People that I talked to sometimes cried, but those who cried with almost one, only one exception, they cried when they told me that the parent apologized. It was that moment rather than all these terrible things that they suffered. That they didn't cry about that. So I think it's because it's so moving. But I think it's again, I think it's about caring. You want to know that the parent cares.
SPEAKER_00:And you think as a parent, your kids should know they care. You care. And and God you care.
SPEAKER_01:That's the other side of it. From parents, I talked about again, thinking of that book I wrote about mothers and daughters. So many women told me the worst thing, worst thing would be to think they weren't a good mother. The one woman who had a career as a journalist, you know, she said, people could criticize my journalism. That's just why, but if somebody implied I wasn't a good mother, I'd fall apart. So in a way, apologizing is admitting that you weren't a good mother in that way. And one woman told me how much I meant to her when her mother apologized, and what she said was, and she was assuring her mother that she was a good mother. And I think that's what made it possible for her mother to say, yeah, I did that bad thing, but I still was a good mother.
SPEAKER_00:And I find, and I don't know whether this is true, but in day-to-day relationships, particularly with my spouse, if he gets angry with me about something or points something out, I loved your thing about pulling the recycle out of the garbage. I mean, I want to tell you how many times it's recyclable. If you just say I'm sorry, everything goes away.
SPEAKER_01:Yep. We're we're the reverse. My husband and I are the reverse. Oh, really? Many of the things I talk about, he isn't your typical guy. But this one is he does not like to say he's sorry. And I'll tell you two funny ones because you know he's heard me talk about this, and he knows right into saying, I'm sorry for everything.
SPEAKER_00:And and you said, and I identified with this too. My husband does this, something funny, it makes you laugh and it goes away.
SPEAKER_01:And another one that this probably more recently, I said, Well, why don't you just say you're sorry? He said, You know, I can't say sorry the same day. And it's true. He can say it the next day.
SPEAKER_00:Yeah, it's you know, it I don't know. I just know I want to cut it off. So I figure if I say I'm sorry, it's done. I don't even have to mean it.
SPEAKER_01:Well, that's absolutely you mean that you want it to be over.
SPEAKER_00:You I mean that I want it to be over, right?
SPEAKER_01:Exactly. Exactly. This is very revealing. I was actually visiting my sister and her husband, and he came home late and he was supposed to help, but he said, Well, I was there, so he didn't need to help. And they they were going back and forth. And he at one point said, Well, I just don't know what to say. And I sort of mouthed, apologize, he didn't pick it up. So I whispered, apologize, he didn't pick it up. So I went over and I belted, apologize. And my sister said, Yeah, if you'd apologize, I'd forget it. But what he said was that never occurred to me. To me, that was so revealing. It's not like he was resisting it, it just wasn't on his radar screen. And I think part of that is it's not going to change anything. Words mean more often, not always, often to women than to men. Actions, men focus more on. Your friend is the one you do everything with, your best friend is the one you tell everything to.
SPEAKER_00:Well, I could talk to you for hours because I just adore you, but I have to wrap this up. We're going way over the time I I allotted, and I probably promised you. So, as I told you in advance, I need two takeaways. And remember, this is about parents and adult children. It doesn't have to be mothers-daughters, but it could be. What are two things you hope people take away from this conversation?
SPEAKER_01:Well, maybe the biggest one is that that's the big takeaway, and maybe one other that we didn't talk about, but is still important. Okay. If something is irritating you, just stop for a second and ask could that person be responding to something you said or did? We tend to think of ourselves as the prime mover and then and the other person as a prime mover. So you did this. Yeah, but maybe you did it because of something I did or said.
SPEAKER_00:I think that's 100% true. And I think many of us don't stop to think that. I always say to people, it takes two to tango.
SPEAKER_01:Yeah. Um, actually, I said we think we think of ourselves as reacting and the other person as the prime mover. I missed Right, right, right.
SPEAKER_00:Very good. Well, thank you so much. I appreciate this time. I really look forward to your book on apology. When do you think that's going to come out?
SPEAKER_01:Well, I haven't got yet gotten the uh comments from my editor, so Oh, okay. So we have a while. Yeah, we'll have to see how long it takes me to make whatever changes. Well, thank you again so much. My pleasure.
SPEAKER_00:Great. Well, that's a wrap. This conversation with Dr. Tannin was such a gift. She's certainly an academic, and you can hear it in everything she says. She showed us how our care towards our adult children can also sound like criticism to them. It really seems like talking to them about this and sharing this episode, maybe, can help us both get on the same path. You know, just a little thing like you're wearing that, or I like the way your dress looks, they can take as criticism. But she's given us hope that becoming more aware of these messages and listening differently and looking at ourselves will go more towards connection instead of conflicts. I thank her so much for joining us, and I know our listeners will carry these ideas into their own families with their adult children and hopefully find a little more understanding and maybe even a little more peace in the process. So thanks, listeners, for listening. Thank you, Connie Goron Fisher, our audio engineer, for making this sound better than we did it when we recorded it. We'll look forward to reading Dr. Tannin's book on apology. And please log on to our website, biteyourtonguepodcast.com, or email us at biteyourtonguepodcast at gmail.com. Give us a good review, donate as little as five dollars, but let us know you're out there and let us know you're supporting us. And remember, particularly after this conversation, sometimes you just have to bite your tongue.
